Shindig Track / AutoX Vids

SloGN

9Sec Alky V6
Re: Shindig Track / AutoX Vids

Oh, and on the AutoX class note. As this form of racing gains popularity at our events (other than the one me and Dobrick did at last year's NATS, this is the only other time we've autox'd), we will improve our regulation of stock vs mod trucks. We don't race for points or money, so we felt like simplifying the distinctions to make sure we only had 2 classes. As a matter of fact, we don't even limit engine mods for stock class right now (that will change as soon as I can draft up some better rules), only suspension mods. We only made a few things eligible for class movement, so we obviously, have our work cut out for us on the administrative side of things, but I promise to have this all ironed out by next year's event(s).


SWEET

I'm glad to hear that this is gonna stay!! I really had no idea it would be so much fun!


Do you really think engine mods are a big advantage? I can see suspension, brakes, larger that stock wheels and tires being at a better adavantage.


Does the scca/autocross rules ahve anything about weight when factoring in clases?

I'm sure i had the heaviest sy out there.
 

sytyguy

Moderated User
Re: Shindig Track / AutoX Vids

Do you really think engine mods are a big advantage? I can see suspension, brakes, larger that stock wheels and tires being at a better adavantage. Does the scca/autocross rules ahve anything about weight when factoring in clases? I'm sure i had the heaviest sy out there.
To my knowledge, weight would only play a factor for us if you entered the Pro SOLO Tour. Not applicable locally/regionally IIRC.

Engine mods. It's a point to ponder. Gary and I were talking about this a little this wkend. The biggest gains for our trucks will always be in handling, not power, but on the style course we had Sat., power can be an advantage. We had very few brake zones (at our request), very few slow, technical areas (again, at our request), and plenty of places to open the tap (esp. off the line and out of the first element).

Now, keep in mind that this [engine rules] will not be as limiting as the suspension rules will be, but there has to be some division as power mods do play a role (they would be a non-issue in all of SCCA if they didn't). I'll obviously present the forum with what I draft up, but the more extreme engine mods will probably require class movement (though it's relative, as most high HP trucks have suspension mods that would eliminate them from FS anyways).

And, some might say, let's just abide by SCCA stock rules, but by that regulatory body, a .030 bore engine goes into ESP.....so does any exhaust mods.....so does a throttle body airfoil. See what I mean? We can't go by the letter of the [SCCA] law, but we do need some division for the sake of future events (esp. if rewards for AutoX get more "rewarding").
 

phoonTy

Truckless. For now.
Re: Shindig Track / AutoX Vids

^^ That is a sweet idea. Noted for Nationals Denver. :tup:
 

sytyguy

Moderated User
Re: Shindig Track / AutoX Vids

T Jay, if you guys do an autocross at Denver and need some help, just holler. TBH, it's best to hijack a local event, but I'll be glad to be of assistance if needed. Also, PM me an addy - got you a tee to go out.
 

GAShan

Donating Member
Re: Shindig Track / AutoX Vids

Power is tough to pin down. The really big turbo guys had some serious lag issues at two spots on the course. Stock and smaller turbos seemed to keep the boost up better and were more responsive. Left foot braking helps if you keep your foot in it to keep boost up all of the time but it takes a lot of practice. Pope and I talked about it a little, but it seems that anything you do that helps your truck at the drags hurts on auto-x. Suspension set up, tire pressures, sway bars, drag links, 90/10 shocks all work for one or the other but not both. Also we didn't account for tire size or compound. Wider stickier tires definitely helped.
 

sytyguy

Moderated User
Re: Shindig Track / AutoX Vids

Tires are a part of the revisions, but to be fair, SCCA barely limits them either (R compound can be used in all stock classes for approved wheels), so limiting just the compound isn't going to happen. I'll probably just follow SCCA with this and leave the compound out of the equation and just let wheels determine classification movement.
 

AutoVation

Member
Re: Shindig Track / AutoX Vids

On this course I definitely felt at a disadvantage with my POS stock turbo and sticking wastegate. In my ESP "modified" truck, I probably lost a full second or two to the "stock class" big turbo trucks on the long straight at the launch. I would consider almost all the trucks racing at Shindig to be modified.

Front suspension (Torsion bar or coilovers)
Wheels (17" & under, 18" & over)
Tires (street or R-compound)
Brakes (13" and/or rear discs, 12" and drums)
ABS (no, yes)
Turbo (upgraded, 20g or stock)
Overall weight reduction (under 3400lbs, over 3400 lbs) - FYI, Roebling has scales with corner weights at the course.
Transmission (working, broken or missing gears...)

It may make sense to make 2 different classes and rate the trucks via a matrix system:

1. Power class
2. Suspension class

This would allow people to tune for drag racing and still be competitive and have fun in auto-x events.
 

sytyguy

Moderated User
Re: Shindig Track / AutoX Vids

On this course I definitely felt at a disadvantage with my POS stock turbo and sticking wastegate. In my ESP "modified" truck, I probably lost a full second or two to the "stock class" big turbo trucks on the long straight at the launch. I would consider almost all the trucks racing at Shindig to be modified.

Front suspension (Torsion bar or coilovers)
Wheels (17" & under, 18" & over)
Tires (street or R-compound)
Brakes (13" and/or rear discs, 12" and drums)
ABS (no, yes)
Turbo (upgraded, 20g or stock)
Overall weight reduction (under 3400lbs, over 3400 lbs) - FYI, Roebling has scales with corner weights at the course.
Transmission (working, broken or missing gears...)

It may make sense to make 2 different classes and rate the trucks via a matrix system:

1. Power class
2. Suspension class

This would allow people to tune for drag racing and still be competitive and have fun in auto-x events.
It wouldn't be necessary to go to Roebling. We have portable scales.

I'm leaning towards the NASAx system (points based) where you have XX points to "use up" before moving up a class. Example: a bone stock truck has 0 mod points, and the owner adds ZR1 wheels (15 points), R-compound tires (15 points), and a 20g turbo (10 points). Class A (stock) is 0-39 points, so with the mods mentioned, the owner would have a 40 point truck and be moved to class B. Continue modifying and the class will coincide. This would allow the owners to be selective about mods (balancing b/t autox and drag) and still be classed accordingly. It will also allow you to have some mod "freedom" and remain in a class of your choosing w/o having to abide by a strict guideline.

The SCCA classing system is great for what it is, but it doesn't port well to our trucks/events. I personally feel the NASAx system would fit us better. I'm working with a Nationally competitive autocrosser (who is very familiar with our trucks) on this. We should have something drafted up soon.
 

AutoVation

Member
Re: Shindig Track / AutoX Vids

It wouldn't be necessary to go to Roebling. We have portable scales.

I'm leaning towards the NASAx system (points based) where you have XX points to "use up" before moving up a class. Example: a bone stock truck has 0 mod points, and the owner adds ZR1 wheels (15 points), R-compound tires (15 points), and a 20g turbo (10 points). Class A (stock) is 0-39 points, so with the mods mentioned, the owner would have a 40 point truck and be moved to class B. Continue modifying and the class will coincide. This would allow the owners to be selective about mods (balancing b/t autox and drag) and still be classed accordingly. It will also allow you to have some mod "freedom" and remain in a class of your choosing w/o having to abide by a strict guideline.

The SCCA classing system is great for what it is, but it doesn't port well to our trucks/events. I personally feel the NASAx system would fit us better. I'm working with a Nationally competitive autocrosser (who is very familiar with our trucks) on this. We should have something drafted up soon.
I like the points idea. If we went by SCCA rules, everyone would be in the same class. You could also use the points as a time modifier similar to what they did in the SCCA ranking sheet. Now I need to figure out how to get my truck to Denver...

Back to autox vids, here's my 40.4 sec run: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y15i0984irY
 

SYO237

SyTy Registry
Re: Shindig Track / AutoX Vids

Just for some feedback on my truck. I started the first run in the high 40s and dropped them down to a 39.4 before the trans started going south. Obviously, I started out going easy to learn the course and then progressively starting hacking away at the clock with crucial feedback coming from onlookers.

My truck:

KYB Shocks
Stock Suspension (a-arms, torsion bars - lowered slightly, leafs)
Stock brakes all around with removed ABS (that could be an advantage or disadvantage depending on how you look at it)

Major modifications to affect performance for autoX include:
Beefed up 700R4 Trans with 3000 stall TC
2" drop blocks
Caltracs
PTE52 Turbo w/60# Injectors
A2A
17" C5 Vette wheels with cheapo tires. (although, tires are 180 treadwear, so they were sticky)

Overall, the only real advantages I have over "pure stock" is caltracs as far as suspension goes and a decently soft (and cheap) sticky tire on a slightly wider rim (17x8.5). Other than missing fenderwells, and a FG cowl hood, and a few missing engine items, I dont have any big advantages on weight reduction from a stock truck.

On the course we had at Shindig, my biggest area of problem was the first 2 turns. My truck was pushing the front end by the time I was coming out of turn 2 which was hurting my times. That spot was very hard for our trucks due to the amount of speed you had to scrub off with the amount of launch area we started with. I never found the perfect combo of throttle, brake, and turning for all my runs in that spot.

I also had some issues coming out of the long curve before going into the slalom but that could be credited to the small amount of gravel and wet ground at the exit spot of the turn. I would get loose there each time and had to straighten out before getting back into WOT.... I believe Lee was breaking out there too, and so where other vehicles I watched.
 

sytyguy

Moderated User
Re: Shindig Track / AutoX Vids

I like the points idea. If we went by SCCA rules, everyone would be in the same class. You could also use the points as a time modifier similar to what they did in the SCCA ranking sheet. Now I need to figure out how to get my truck to Denver...

Back to autox vids, here's my 40.4 sec run: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y15i0984irY
A points to PAX would be neat but could be difficult to implement. Assigning a set time multiplier to each mod could be tough considering how the same mod (e.g. exhaust) could affect trucks differently throughout the mod scale. We actually thought about that at first, but with the complications behind it, we felt compelled to revisit it later. Vehicle PAX, no biggie.....mod PAX, a little tough.
 

AutoVation

Member
Re: Shindig Track / AutoX Vids

A points to PAX would be neat but could be difficult to implement. Assigning a set time multiplier to each mod could be tough considering how the same mod (e.g. exhaust) could affect trucks differently throughout the mod scale. We actually thought about that at first, but with the complications behind it, we felt compelled to revisit it later. Vehicle PAX, no biggie.....mod PAX, a little tough.
True. I'm sure you will come up with a good way to make it competitive and most of all fun.
 

SloGN

9Sec Alky V6
Re: Shindig Track / AutoX Vids

On this course I definitely felt at a disadvantage with my POS stock turbo and sticking wastegate. In my ESP "modified" truck, I probably lost a full second or two to the "stock class" big turbo trucks on the long straight at the launch. I would consider almost all the trucks racing at Shindig to be modified.

Front suspension (Torsion bar or coilovers)
Wheels (17" & under, 18" & over)
Tires (street or R-compound)
Brakes (13" and/or rear discs, 12" and drums)
ABS (no, yes)
Turbo (upgraded, 20g or stock)
Overall weight reduction (under 3400lbs, over 3400 lbs) - FYI, Roebling has scales with corner weights at the course.
Transmission (working, broken or missing gears...)

It may make sense to make 2 different classes and rate the trucks via a matrix system:

1. Power class
2. Suspension class

This would allow people to tune for drag racing and still be competitive and have fun in auto-x events.


my truck is the stock one there. has a chip(atr) exhaust and k/n air filter! so i don't think your turbo hurt you at all. I had stock wheels with kumho tires. i'm sure the heaviest as well

Matter of fact you and your truck out drove me!
 

SloGN

9Sec Alky V6
Re: Shindig Track / AutoX Vids

Just for some feedback on my truck. I started the first run in the high 40s and dropped them down to a 39.4 before the trans started going south. Obviously, I started out going easy to learn the course and then progressively starting hacking away at the clock with crucial feedback coming from onlookers.

My truck:

KYB Shocks
Stock Suspension (a-arms, torsion bars - lowered slightly, leafs)
Stock brakes all around with removed ABS (that could be an advantage or disadvantage depending on how you look at it)

Major modifications to affect performance for autoX include:
Beefed up 700R4 Trans with 3000 stall TC
2" drop blocks
Caltracs
PTE52 Turbo w/60# Injectors
A2A
17" C5 Vette wheels with cheapo tires. (although, tires are 180 treadwear, so they were sticky)

Overall, the only real advantages I have over "pure stock" is caltracs as far as suspension goes and a decently soft (and cheap) sticky tire on a slightly wider rim (17x8.5). Other than missing fenderwells, and a FG cowl hood, and a few missing engine items, I dont have any big advantages on weight reduction from a stock truck.

On the course we had at Shindig, my biggest area of problem was the first 2 turns. My truck was pushing the front end by the time I was coming out of turn 2 which was hurting my times. That spot was very hard for our trucks due to the amount of speed you had to scrub off with the amount of launch area we started with. I never found the perfect combo of throttle, brake, and turning for all my runs in that spot.

I also had some issues coming out of the long curve before going into the slalom but that could be credited to the small amount of gravel and wet ground at the exit spot of the turn. I would get loose there each time and had to straighten out before getting back into WOT.... I believe Lee was breaking out there too, and so where other vehicles I watched.

I too started out in the upper 49's and got down a 41.5 on my last run. i actually held the truck back in first gear till i got on the brake for the first curve. The reason for that is when my truck shifts into second @ WOT it noses overs for a bit till it gets the rpm's back up.

so i just held the rpms up higher there. and then manualy shift to second and held second gear thru the entire course. My reason for holding second is for the engine braking in the chicanes on the back stretch without have to completly lift of the gas to hit the brakes. Like gary said left foot brake driving is a Bitch!

Did holding second hurt me i dunno! i doubt it since i don't think my truck had enough power to accelrate fast enough to make it to third gear @ wot on the back of the course. so by doing that it didn't shift to third when i would slack up on the throttle and then downshift again when went back to WOT

Do i make sense lol.

I'm still learning on this!

But i think i found some the truck can do pretty good without spending a ton of money!


BTW adam the first thing i did at the autox is unplug the abs unit. i also needed more air in the front tires! the cold temps had them @ 28 psi
 

SYO237

SyTy Registry
Re: Shindig Track / AutoX Vids

Like gary said left foot brake driving is a Bitch!
Not for me.... I naturally drive with both feet to begin with, so its a no issue for me to left foot brake. I do it every car I drive. Ya got 2 pedals, ya got 2 feet. :tup:
 

AutoVation

Member
Re: Shindig Track / AutoX Vids

Not for me.... I naturally drive with both feet to begin with, so its a no issue for me to left foot brake. I do it every car I drive. Ya got 2 pedals, ya got 2 feet. :tup:
Easy for me also. Racing pedals improved my lap times by at least 5 seconds. No slippage! :tup::D:tup:
 
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