Sy not starting - UPDATE

[Baythan]

I've been trudging through dozens of archive posts and I don't find the "exact" symptoms my truck has decided to grace me with. :rant:

About two weeks ago, turn key...nothing. (no clicks, no crank, just a few idiot lights). Turn key again...nothing. Turn a third time, truck starts. Travel. Truck starts no problem throughout the day.

Battery replaced.

Get in it the other day to take it out, turn key...nothing. (same as above). Keep turning key, never starts. NO clicking.

Before I drop some $$ on a starter (I can get a CVR for $141), how can I safely rule out ignition switch, ECM or other poss. problems (and easier fixes)?

LOVE-HATE LOVE-HATE LOVE-HATE = SyTy Ownership :roll:

Learning to be mechanical...and currently in HATE mode...

 

[jjorgensen52]

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

you getting fuel? loose sensor / ground connections can cut the fuel pump power to the truck... what idiot lights do you get?

 

[Hu Ryde]

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

Do the lights on the dash dim when you try and crank it like a voltage drop?

Couple good places to start:

Starter wire:

Thanks to everyone that posted ideas on what they had done. I finally did a combination of things other people have done and I am very happy with the results. Jegs and Summit sell kits that are already done. But by the time you pay $30 to $35 for the kit and $8 or $9 shipping and handling you've got almost $45 in a project that shouldn't cost you more than $20.

The remote solenoid is NAPA part #ECHST81. Will look just like the one in the sketch I made above. The terminal ends I bought at Autozone. They were hanging with all the other adapter along the battery wall they have there.

I used a Ford remote starter solenoid mounted over where the battery used to be like Sean Morris said to use. My battery is relocated but there is plenty of room in front of the coolant overflow tank for the solenoid to be mounted on the inner fender. Cut the ends off of the stock positive and negative cable and soldered my extensions on using rosin core solder and a propane torch like Myclone(Dave)did with his. Heat shrink and sealed up nice. The alternator, battery, and headlights were all soldered to a fitting that bolted onto the battery side of the solenoid. I had to do it this way because I used a longer positive cable since the battery was down under the fender now. The stock starter wire(foil heat shielded) ran from the other big post on the solenoid down to the starter.
Now on the starter, I used an 1/8" piece of copper ground strap about 1" wide like you get at Lowe's and drilled two holes in it so I could bridge the starter's battery post (the large stud that the battery cable connects to) with the post the old purple wire went to. No more purple wire to deal with as the current to the old plunger now comes from a 4 gauge wire that feeds the starter motor and the strap feeds the old plunger.

Now on the purple wire, I did like Richard did and went over top of the brake booster and opened up the loom. There are 3 purple wires in there. 1 is bigger than the others. Used a multimeter(set to check continuity) and found out for certain which one was the bastard purple wire I needed. I cut it and spliced on a new 10 gauge wire and ran it along the firewall where the windshield wiper motor is all the way over the relays for boost and CAC all the way to the passenger side fender and ran it down the fender to the Ford solenoid. On the solenoid one of the two small studs(most likely the one on the left) was labeled with an "S". This is the one the ignition switch will now feed with 12 volts when you turn the key. The signal is ground to the fender through the bracket of the solenoid where the mounting bolts go through. Make sure you use those little washers that cut into the metal when the self tapping screws are tightened. If you do this project make certain that you keep the alternator on the side that shares the battery contact. In other words, don't cut the alternator wire. The alternator wire is slightly smaller in diameter than the battery cables. This is very important because the side of the solenoid with the cable that now runs down to the starter will only be live when the solenoid is fed 12 volts through the "S" terminal.

My voltage jumped almost a full volt (while the engine is running)from improved contact to the alternator with the battery and the starter spins no matter how hot it gets anymore. Thestarter I used was an AC Delco I got from the dealer. No one around here carries them anymore unless you want a rebuilt unit from China or Taiwan. During a fire safety inspection(I work for the local fire dept)and found an armature rebuilding facility. They do alternators and starters. All kinds. Some of these alternators were 10" in diameter and 12" long. The gentleman that owns the shop said it is a dying art because it is cheaper for people to go to a discount parts store and buy a cheaply rebuilt unit from China or Mexico instead of having their old units rebuilt. This place was most impressive and the owner was most helpful in explaining how this stuff works and why it quits working sometimes.

Another thing on starters. NO MATTER WHERE YOU GET IT, LOOK AT THE ALUMINUM NOSE END THAT THE SOLENOID BOLTS TO(the side that points to the rear). If it says "SHIM" on it, make them take it back and find you another that does not have it on there. These were for 4cylinders and 2.8 V6's. 4.3 liter V6's don't benefit from this at all as you can shim all day and your clearance won't be right and it will scream like baby every time you crank it over.

I didn't like the Hot Shot relay because I didn't like the idea of all the constant fed 12 volt wires running all over the place down by the exhaust and it still didn't address heat related voltage resistance issues.

PS:The heat shield that Auto Zone now sells will absolutely NOT fit the solenoid on our starters. No matter how much you cut or trim it. Mine hit the exhaust manifold and still didn't have enough room for the starter wire. It fits the old huge solenoids but not ours.....

Here's some pics of the purple wire that you will need to splice into in order to feed the "S" terminal on the solenoid. This is just over the power brake booster on the driver's side firewall. These were used under the permission of Brian Wyse (AKA Bdubb).

The end of the wire that is under Bdubb's thumb is the one that runs down to the starter. You can see in the foreground where he has spliced on a LARGE black wire onto the original purple starter wire coming from the ignition switch in the column. That black wire is what runs over to the remote solenoid.

Originally posted by GB.

If anything try a couple shims, if it's too tight it will do anothing. I had this happen on mine with new started, it wouldnt crank without any shims. Ended up putting like 4 shims in to get it far enough away from flywheel.

 

[Captain Morgan]

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

hey Steve, next time this happens (if its not still doing this) take the truck out of Park and put it in Neutral and see if it starts.

 

[Merk]

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

Neutral Safety Switch gone bad, or Ignition wiring in your steering column

 

[Baythan]

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

Thanks for the quick responses.

Morgan: If I do this and it starts, what does this mean?
HuRyde: I'll have to check the voltage. Could I have a good starter but a fried wire?
JJorgensen: Um...just the normal start up lights. Check engine (turns off) and I forget the other two. I'll double check when I get home.
Merk: What about the ignition wiring in steering column?

Thanks.

 

[Jimmy]

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

I would imagine that it's the starter solenoid or the purple solenoid wire.

 

[Baythan]

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

Just checked...car will NOT start in neutral.

Idiot lights that show are: Check Engine, Check Gauges, & Seatbelt

Fuel pump primes when key is turned.

next...

 

[Flyin Ryan]

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

Check your ground man,

I had the same issue in my oldsmobile.. I could however for the longest time simply push a few wires around near the starter (it was right on the front of the motor) and it would magically start. I ended up replacing the starter after months of being lazy.. and after doing so that process I noticed that the ground was covered with oil and dirt. I cleaned it and re-installed it. Problem solved.

 

[Hu Ryde]

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

Agree, check grounds and check the contacts at the battery for them being corroded. Yes you could have a good starter but a fried wire, the purple wire is very common to go bad and cause similar situations. Don't buy a starter yet, check the connections, wires & grounds first.

Do you have a batt relocation kit or is it in the stock location?

Good luck.

 

[JSM]

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

I would test voltage of purple wire while you turn the key. You can access it at starter obviously. The wire runs up along side pass of block and across top of firewall, powder brake booster. You can tap in anywhere along there to test.

Most of the time the last 2-3ft is metled due to exhaust heat.

 

[Baythan]

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

Re: Sy not starting - no crank

Thanks Hu and JS. I'll check grounds and voltage. I'll have to push the truck out of the garage to access starter 'cause the PS is up against the wall. Hoping it's just a loose or corroded ground...that would make my day!

Jesse: battery, like everything else on the truck, is in stock location.

Am I ruling out neutral safety switch because truck will NOT start in neutral? Or should I jiggle that one too?

 

[Baythan]

Re: Sy not starting - no crank -UPDATE

Re: Sy not starting - no crank -UPDATE

Checked power to starter via purple wire in loom and also at connection to solenoid. Had power.

Yanked fat starter (what a complete PITA...that hex nut on the conveter cover is a beee-atch with prop shaft in place.)

Put in mini P6449S (Advance Auto, about $130) tonight and started right up. Will eventually get around to relay.

Thanks to everyone for the help and to 1BADV6 who helped offline.

Hopefully this thread will help someone down the road who experiences the same symptoms.

Back in the LOVE mode! :woot:

 

[GMCSyclone1]

Re: Sy not starting - UPDATE

Glad to hear it :tup: Theres nothing like finding and fixing the problem quick. It took my dumbass two days of searching and testing to realize I put the wires on the distributer wrong after having the motor torn apart I fixed that prob. and it fired right up and the Love mode kicked in just as quick.

 

[mmp142965]

Re: Sy not starting - no crank -UPDATE

Re: Sy not starting - no crank -UPDATE

Checked power to starter via purple wire in loom and also at connection to solenoid. Had power.

Yanked fat starter (what a complete PITA...that hex nut on the conveter cover is a beee-atch with prop shaft in place.)

Put in mini P6449S (Advance Auto, about $130) tonight and started right up. Will eventually get around to relay.

Thanks to everyone for the help and to 1BADV6 who helped offline.

Hopefully this thread will help someone down the road who experiences the same symptoms.

Back in the LOVE mode! :woot:

Sorry to join so late, but for the last month I have had the exact same experience as you have. I went as far as waiting 2 weeks for new battery cables. (have yet to install them)

I bought a mini starter and replaced the purple wire all the way up to the brake booster, like all the archives say

I cleaned and prepped the old positive cable because I couldnt wait any more for the new ones. Put it all back together and it started great...for 2 weeks. Last night didn't start. Then started on the third try if you held it, then nothing at all. The lights dim in park, the fuel pump primes. Nothing happens in nuetral. I have an new optima yellow top battery.

So, back to square 1. I am going to work on it this weekend so I will post my results. I am going to check the ground side, and maybe just install both new battery cables as I finaly have them. I thought I was in the clear with out the relay, but I might be doing that as well. Wish me luck

Thanks for the insight guys!

 

[Jimmy]

Re: Sy not starting - no crank -UPDATE

Re: Sy not starting - no crank -UPDATE

Sorry to join so late, but for the last month I have had the exact same experience as you have. I went as far as waiting 2 weeks for new battery cables. (have yet to install them)

I bought a mini starter and replaced the purple wire all the way up to the brake booster, like all the archives say

I cleaned and prepped the old positive cable because I couldnt wait any more for the new ones. Put it all back together and it started great...for 2 weeks. Last night didn't start. Then started on the third try if you held it, then nothing at all. The lights dim in park, the fuel pump primes. Nothing happens in nuetral. I have an new optima yellow top battery.

So, back to square 1. I am going to work on it this weekend so I will post my results. I am going to check the ground side, and maybe just install both new battery cables as I finaly have them. I thought I was in the clear with out the relay, but I might be doing that as well. Wish me luck

Thanks for the insight guys!

Sounds like an alternator problem to me.
FWIW I put a mini starter in mine a couple of years ago and replaced the purple wire to the brake booster with 10 gauge,haven't had a problem since (except when I pinched the purple wire between the bellhousing and engine doing a tranny install :roll: )

 

[mmp142965]

Re: Sy not starting - no crank -UPDATE

Re: Sy not starting - no crank -UPDATE

Sounds like an alternator problem to me.

You may be on to something. The only reason I havent checked it yet is because when I jumped the truck with another vehicle, it still would not start. I will check it out though...once i get it to start...

 

[Baythan]

Re: Sy not starting - UPDATE

Good luck. Keep us posted! :tup: