2000+ spindle/knuckle
- Thread starter Sy#1991
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cloneman315
Active member
Re: 2000+ spindle/knuckle
What are you using a newer version for?
What are you using a newer version for?
DaveP
Active member
Re: 2000+ spindle/knuckle
AFAIK the 98-2004 4X4 spindle is the same for the larger front brakes. Not all S/T series in these years have the larger brakes. I don't have the part number, my fiche only goes to 94.
And while the 2nd gen calipers are dual piston, the area of the combined pistons is LESS than the single piston 1st gen caliper. This alone will DEcrease braking effort with the same pedal pressure. What increases the 2nd gen brakes effectiveness is a slightly larger rotor diameter (12.75 vs 12.0) and about a 30% larger pad swept area. The"dual pistons" by themselves have nothing to do with the "better" part of the upgrade.
I recall a thread on here where a peep installed Wilwood dual piston calipers on the stock rotors and spindles. Wildwood has two different size piston calipers. The larger diameter duals have the same area as the stock caliper, and will leave the front /rear bias about the same, with everything else being left alone. The smaller diameter pistons will DEcrease the front brake effectiveness. These are intended for use with master cyl upgrades used with 4 wheel disc brake upgrades. The peep installed the smaller diameter wildwoods, and his brakes weren't as "good" as they had been stock. Which made sense to me. It's the AREA of the combined pistons that needs to be considered. The number of pistons means nothing. The area sure does.
Here's a thread with some info on the 2nd gen brakes.
AFAIK the 98-2004 4X4 spindle is the same for the larger front brakes. Not all S/T series in these years have the larger brakes. I don't have the part number, my fiche only goes to 94.
And while the 2nd gen calipers are dual piston, the area of the combined pistons is LESS than the single piston 1st gen caliper. This alone will DEcrease braking effort with the same pedal pressure. What increases the 2nd gen brakes effectiveness is a slightly larger rotor diameter (12.75 vs 12.0) and about a 30% larger pad swept area. The"dual pistons" by themselves have nothing to do with the "better" part of the upgrade.
I recall a thread on here where a peep installed Wilwood dual piston calipers on the stock rotors and spindles. Wildwood has two different size piston calipers. The larger diameter duals have the same area as the stock caliper, and will leave the front /rear bias about the same, with everything else being left alone. The smaller diameter pistons will DEcrease the front brake effectiveness. These are intended for use with master cyl upgrades used with 4 wheel disc brake upgrades. The peep installed the smaller diameter wildwoods, and his brakes weren't as "good" as they had been stock. Which made sense to me. It's the AREA of the combined pistons that needs to be considered. The number of pistons means nothing. The area sure does.
Here's a thread with some info on the 2nd gen brakes.
cloneman315
Active member
Re: 2000+ spindle/knuckle
Post your project please. I am getting ready to do a upgrade to me front. I already have the H boost
Post your project please. I am getting ready to do a upgrade to me front. I already have the H boost
mattw
Active member
Sy#1991
New member
Re: 2000+ spindle/knuckle
I started a build thread a couple months ago but I'm doing a complete tear down to frame and building up from there. I hope to have front suspension, steering and front brakes setup by spring time.
I started a build thread a couple months ago but I'm doing a complete tear down to frame and building up from there. I hope to have front suspension, steering and front brakes setup by spring time.
Sy#1991
New member
Re: 2000+ spindle/knuckle
I think you still need the brackets from Renzfab. I remember reading about the newer knuckles just for the newer bearings without needed the extra seal in knuckle.?
I think you still need the brackets from Renzfab. I remember reading about the newer knuckles just for the newer bearings without needed the extra seal in knuckle.?
DaveP
Active member
Re: 2000+ spindle/knuckle
The 2nd gen hub uses a different outer C/V joint and seal arrangement.
The 2nd gen bearing will work with the 1st gen outer C/V, but the seal integrity is compromised, and water and dirt can get into the bearing. I know the 1st gen bearing won't fit into the 2nd gen knuckle.
For my Typhoon conversion I am installing 2nd gen outer C/V joints on my original 1st gen axle shafts. I may go back and retrofit 2nd gen outer C/V's to the DD too at some point.
The 2nd gen hub uses a different outer C/V joint and seal arrangement.
The 2nd gen bearing will work with the 1st gen outer C/V, but the seal integrity is compromised, and water and dirt can get into the bearing. I know the 1st gen bearing won't fit into the 2nd gen knuckle.
For my Typhoon conversion I am installing 2nd gen outer C/V joints on my original 1st gen axle shafts. I may go back and retrofit 2nd gen outer C/V's to the DD too at some point.
DaveP
Active member
Re: 2000+ spindle/knuckle
The idea is to make it part of an all-OEM front brake upgrade. It's not tough at all to change the outer C/V joints, but you have to be prepared to deal with the clamps on the boots. The most reliable way to compress the clamps so that they don't seep grease is to use a special tool. I have one, it was about $100 IIRC.
I don't know why one would want just the 2nd gen bearing. And you can't get it without also doing the spindles and some kind of brake caliper change.
The idea is to make it part of an all-OEM front brake upgrade. It's not tough at all to change the outer C/V joints, but you have to be prepared to deal with the clamps on the boots. The most reliable way to compress the clamps so that they don't seep grease is to use a special tool. I have one, it was about $100 IIRC.
I don't know why one would want just the 2nd gen bearing. And you can't get it without also doing the spindles and some kind of brake caliper change.
DaveP
Active member
Re: 2000+ spindle/knuckle
Yes they arfe a different pattern. From 98-up, the inner joints are splined into the diff. No bolt flange like the SyTy has.
There is an axle with the 1st gen bolt flange inners, and the 2nd gen bearing outers. It will be for 1996 and 1997 Bravada and the 97 AWD Blazer and Jimmy 4-door only. Nothing else.
Yes they arfe a different pattern. From 98-up, the inner joints are splined into the diff. No bolt flange like the SyTy has.
There is an axle with the 1st gen bolt flange inners, and the 2nd gen bearing outers. It will be for 1996 and 1997 Bravada and the 97 AWD Blazer and Jimmy 4-door only. Nothing else.
dgoodhue
BuSTeD 4.3
Re: 2000+ spindle/knuckle
I understand why one would do the conversion for the improved brakes. If you read his post, he is adding cts-v calipers and z06 rotors which will require adapters anyways whether or not he used the 1st or 2nd gen spindles.
I understand why one would do the conversion for the improved brakes. If you read his post, he is adding cts-v calipers and z06 rotors which will require adapters anyways whether or not he used the 1st or 2nd gen spindles.
DaveP
Active member
Re: 2000+ spindle/knuckle
I know. I can read. I'm one of the best readers on here.
The two spindles have different caliper mounting ears and arrangements. I don't know his reason for wanting the second gen spindles, he hasn't explained what he's doing. The little bit I know about it, the 2nd gen spindle is better. The caliper mounting ears are further outboard, and further apart. The adapter bracket will be stiffer on the 2nd gen spindle. The adapter bracket will be longer between the spindle ears and the caliper on the 1st gen spindle, making the bracket flex. Flexing mountings give a spongy pedal, and eventually break from metal fatigue.
I've seen 3 SyTy LS brake installations with "Renz" brackets. The outer pad does not fully contact the rotor surface. Something in the brackets or setup is jankey. Not much of an "upgrade" if only 1/2 the pad surfaces are contacting the rotor. Maybe the OP knows about this too. Perhaps he feels the 2nd gen spindle may help avoid the cocked caliper that happens with the 1st gen spindle and renz brackets.
I know. I can read. I'm one of the best readers on here.
The two spindles have different caliper mounting ears and arrangements. I don't know his reason for wanting the second gen spindles, he hasn't explained what he's doing. The little bit I know about it, the 2nd gen spindle is better. The caliper mounting ears are further outboard, and further apart. The adapter bracket will be stiffer on the 2nd gen spindle. The adapter bracket will be longer between the spindle ears and the caliper on the 1st gen spindle, making the bracket flex. Flexing mountings give a spongy pedal, and eventually break from metal fatigue.
I've seen 3 SyTy LS brake installations with "Renz" brackets. The outer pad does not fully contact the rotor surface. Something in the brackets or setup is jankey. Not much of an "upgrade" if only 1/2 the pad surfaces are contacting the rotor. Maybe the OP knows about this too. Perhaps he feels the 2nd gen spindle may help avoid the cocked caliper that happens with the 1st gen spindle and renz brackets.
mattw
Active member
Re: 2000+ spindle/knuckle
Here are lots of pics from when I switched to 2nd gen parts up front.. I don't see a part # on the knuckles though..
http://mattw2.dyndns.org:81/cgi-bin...n_drivetrain/Brakes/2nd Gen Disc Brakes/Front
Here are lots of pics from when I switched to 2nd gen parts up front.. I don't see a part # on the knuckles though..
http://mattw2.dyndns.org:81/cgi-bin...n_drivetrain/Brakes/2nd Gen Disc Brakes/Front
Re: 2000+ spindle/knuckle
I've only ever seen this happen if you don't properly shim the caliper so that it centers on the rotor, or if your slide/guide pins aren't lubed and aren't allowing the caliper to properly function.
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btw Dave, sorry i failed to call you back - you'd called trying to purchase a brake kit for a truck you're working on - guessing you no longer want it since you claim it only half works...which is funny since i've had 0 complaints of your apparent findings in the probably 100 kits i've sold over the years. Let me know if you still have any interest in purchasing a kit.
This is a straight forward mod, and
incorrect. The 2nd gen spindles caliper mount points still get cut off...and the bracket gets bolted to the bearing bolts.
I've only ever seen this happen if you don't properly shim the caliper so that it centers on the rotor, or if your slide/guide pins aren't lubed and aren't allowing the caliper to properly function.
[/QUOTE]
btw Dave, sorry i failed to call you back - you'd called trying to purchase a brake kit for a truck you're working on - guessing you no longer want it since you claim it only half works...which is funny since i've had 0 complaints of your apparent findings in the probably 100 kits i've sold over the years. Let me know if you still have any interest in purchasing a kit.
This is a straight forward mod, and
DaveP
Active member
Re: 2000+ spindle/knuckle
Ahhh. I stand corrected,
No worries. I was given a pair of LS calipers, and was curious as to what it would take to use them. These are closest to the 13" Baers that DesertSy had that I still miss, and am trying to come up with a similar brake set up for my wht/gry. If Baer still made the kits for the first gen, I may have gone that route, but probably not. I'm too frugal to spend what Baer charges.
I'm pleased with the 2nd gens on my DD which weighs 5,500 lbs, so when I was in a wrecking yard in Reno a few weeks back and they had at least 6 dozen donors, I picked up a complete front set-up for $200 while I was there. Last week I picked up a complete 2nd gen disc brake rear axle.
I like OEM parts, you know that.
I'm not dissin' your set up. Lots of peeps are comfortable with it. I have my own way of doing things.
Ahhh. I stand corrected,
No worries. I was given a pair of LS calipers, and was curious as to what it would take to use them. These are closest to the 13" Baers that DesertSy had that I still miss, and am trying to come up with a similar brake set up for my wht/gry. If Baer still made the kits for the first gen, I may have gone that route, but probably not. I'm too frugal to spend what Baer charges.
I'm pleased with the 2nd gens on my DD which weighs 5,500 lbs, so when I was in a wrecking yard in Reno a few weeks back and they had at least 6 dozen donors, I picked up a complete front set-up for $200 while I was there. Last week I picked up a complete 2nd gen disc brake rear axle.
I like OEM parts, you know that.
I'm not dissin' your set up. Lots of peeps are comfortable with it. I have my own way of doing things.