It's not running again...

[Rexxenexx]

A couple months ago I did a minor tune-up MSD cap+rotor, wires, and coil. The plugs were fairly new NGK UR5's. After that it didn't start. After looking over what I did I couldn't find anything wrong so I thought I'll get to it later.

Yesterday I looked it over 100 times and couldn't find anything so I bought a new NAPA cap & rotor and coil and swapped them after swapping the UR5's for new UR5's since I had an extra set. Nothing is working. I've tested the fuel pump by jumping the test plug and it's giving good pressure (+40 on the rail). It just sounds as if only the starter is turning and turning the engine. No sign of even a stumble or any other attempt to start. Oil pressure goes to @1/2 when I keep trying. It doesn't sound/look like it's firing at all.

checklist:
-Fuel Pressure/Pump ok
-Batt Charged ok
-Wires plugs coil cap rotor new
-fuse ECM and at Alt. ok
-Test OBD, no memory codes

Old fuel would give at least a rough idle right?

How do I test the pigtails that go to the coil?

What else do you think I should try?

 

[bezerk]

Re: It's not running again...

you took the dist out? wires completly off?

 

[Rexxenexx]

Re: It's not running again...

I haven't taken the whole dist out. The wires I've done a couple times and checked firing order a couple times. I don't see any sign of corrosion. Should I take out and clean the dist? I haven't checked the plugs going to the bottom of it.

BTW this is right?

   -Firewall-

     4       3

 5    -Dist-    2

     6        1


 6                 5
 4    -Eng-    3
 2                 1

   -Front of Ty-

The plugs on the bottom pointing towards driver.

 

[bezerk]

Re: It's not running again...

that's correct

 

[bezerk]

Re: It's not running again...

could by any chance they be 180 deg. off? if somebody set in the dist 180 deg off, and after that changed the wires 180 deg to fix it.?

 

[Rexxenexx]

Re: It's not running again...

I don't think the dist has ever been moved. I've changed the wires before but the last time I noted where they were before removing. This time I'm going off that diagram I got off the internet, also I double checked with my other Ty and they are the same. But I haven't checked rotor position. It maybe off, that'll mean it's been off since I bought the car a million years ago. It's worth a check though.

 

[bezerk]

Re: It's not running again...

I don't think the dist has ever been moved. I've changed the wires before but the last time I noted where they were before removing. This time I'm going off that diagram I got off the internet, also I double checked with my other Ty and they are the same. But I haven't checked rotor position. It maybe off, that'll mean it's been off since I bought the car a million years ago. It's worth a check though.

that's what i meant. good lukc and i hope it's your problem.

 

[nfmRc8q]

Re: It's not running again...

when I first changed my cap/rotor/wires/spark plugs on my sy I noticed when putting it all back together that the dist has been turned 1/6th of a turn counterclockwise so my firing order was 6-5-4-3-2-1 instead of 1-6-5-4-3-2 and the truck wouldnt start.. i didn't notice at first but after a while of searching i found out that was the problem.. make sure the flat part of the dist cap is facing towards the firewall/driver side (mine is facing towards firewall/passenger side) you can also check if you can rotate dist by hand maybe you dist holdown bolt is loose and timing is off

...maybe this can help you

David

 

[bezerk]

Re: It's not running again...

when I first changed my cap/rotor/wires/spark plugs on my sy I noticed when putting it all back together that the dist has been turned 1/6th of a turn counterclockwise so my firing order was 6-5-4-3-2-1 instead of 1-6-5-4-3-2 and the truck wouldnt start.. i didn't notice at first but after a while of searching i found out that was the problem.. make sure the flat part of the dist cap is facing towards the firewall/driver side (mine is facing towards firewall/passenger side) you can also check if you can rotate dist by hand maybe you dist holdown bolt is loose and timing is off

...maybe this can help you

David

at 0 dergrees the pointer shoud face number 1 with the cab off

 

[ghettosled]

Re: It's not running again...

pull cap, pull #1 plug, turn motor over so it is at TDC #1 compression stroke (blowing air out)

note where rotor is pointing.. thats number one plug wire. Then check to make sure both wiring plugs are still connected on the back of the distributor.

 

[nfmRc8q]

Re: It's not running again...

were the plugs wet when you pulled it out? If you tried starting it for a while you could also check if your oil smells like gas, if yes its drowned and even if everything is plugged right it isn't gonna start

 

[Rexxenexx]

Re: It's not running again...

I tried 180ing the firing order hoping the gear was 180ed but that didn't work.

I then removed the cap and bumped the starter until mark was at zero and sure enough the rotor points to 1.

I checked the wires behind hoping again that I see mouse bites but everything looks 100%. Both plugs are in and on removal look brand new surprisingly.

How could something this retarded happen just doing a minor tune-up!?

I'm going to pull the dist. Never done it before on this Ty but since I now know where all is pointing it shouldn't be a PIA to get right back in.

@nfmRc8q, the plugs were wet. I replaced them with new ones and if it doesn't start or give any sign of starting I stop for a day that's why I hit it this afternoon. Tomorrow I'll work on removing the dist. and trying again. I also foot to the floor start if it doesn't start, if I remember correctly that puts it into flood mode.

 

[4C FED]

Re: It's not running again...

It's not as easy to put back in as it is to take out. I wouldn't pull it out just yet.
Have you checked to see if you have spark at the plugs?

Probably just a bad ignition module.

 

[Rexxenexx]

Re: It's not running again...

Good idea! I haven't yet. I need to get one of those inline plug testers, or could I stick a 12v bulb inline?

EDIT: Looking at the NAPA cap you'd be hard pressed to tell that it's been in the Ty. It looks 100% new. Not a sign of wear so I'm thinking tomorrow I'll find out theirs no spark...

EDIT2: Ok I got an idea from another thread how to test the spark. I'll clean one of the old plugs I took out and set it somewhere were it's grounded and plug #1 wire to it and see if there's spark.

 

[4C FED]

Re: It's not running again...

Good idea! I haven't yet. I need to get one of those inline plug testers, or could I stick a 12v bulb inline?

EDIT: Looking at the NAPA cap you'd be hard pressed to tell that it's been in the Ty. It looks 100% new. Not a sign of wear so I'm thinking tomorrow I'll find out theirs no spark...

EDIT2: Ok I got an idea from another thread how to test the spark. I'll clean one of the old plugs I took out and set it somewhere were it's grounded and plug #1 wire to it and see if there's spark.

You can also make a ground wire with a section of wire & 2 alligator clips. Clip one end to the ground strap on the plug, (curved piece that covers the electrode) connect the other to some other surface on the block (intake bolt/stud).

As s note, I've had a cap (don't recall if it was a Napa cap), but the center spring loaded tip was not extending all the way out due to some plastic flashing that was covering the tip. I peeled the plastic off it & all was good afterwards.

 

[s_blazin]

Re: It's not running again...

i concur, bad module , but only after all above checks are checked out

 

[Rexxenexx]

Re: It's not running again...

ok, I'm gonna attack this the rest of today since I was too busy this week. The cap is off. I'm gonna check/clean for the 1000th time and put it back to check for spark via the plug method. I have a perfect alligator headed wire I can use for the ground. I checked the MSD cap and the Napa they look good.
Is their a way to remove the toning ring? On my Mustang it's straight forward, two screws. On this the spaced ring is like...covered with another ring? It just looks like an unnecessarily complicated ring. Also is their a diagram/breakout of the distributor? None of my manuals shows anything. I think you guys may be on to something. BTW. How much is a module if I have to replace it?
I'll update progress later today.

UPDATE: OK after testing w/ a spark plug I found a plug test light in the garage lol. Both showed spark. It looks a little weak so I checked the voltage - + at the alt and - at on the firewall bolt - and its 12+ normal 8+ when trying to start. That's ok right? I always put the batt. on the charger between testing and check voltage and it's good. I'm lost on this...

I also removed the boost pipe to see if maybe something is blocking the air but still nothing. Unless their is something in between the intercooler and TB but I don't see how magically something can get there. I'm gonna pull a plug to see what I see...

UPDATE2: It looks like the injectors aren't opening maybe. Plug 1 looks a tiny bit brown -like it sparked- but doesn't look wet as it should be. I'll take a pic so you guys can judge.

PIC:

Or maybe the brown is the fuel and the timing is messed? I'm gonna remove the MSD wires, Napa cap&rot, and Napa coil then put the MSD stuff back on. Hopefully I find something. If not Dave has offered to help maybe tomorrow. Wish me luck!

UPDATE3: I got it chugging! I put back the MSD cap&rot and MSD Coil. I didn't take off the wires from below but obviously took them on/off from the cap. I then checked for spark and this time the light was bright. At least four times brighter. Now to get the car chugging I had to jump the fuel pump jumper on the firewall. Last time I had to do this because the hose was blown in the tank. This time I don't have low pressure so I think it's just a coincidence that I jumped the fuel pump and tried it. Tomorrow when Dave is here we'll try without jumping the fuel. It's very hard to get it going and once it's going it sounds like it's firing on two or three cylinders. I think my biggest problem is the vagueness of the MSD wires. They're too soft and the terminals are loose as hell. It's hard to tell if they are on or not, especially on the pass. side. Maybe I'll cut a bit off the ends but for sure next time I'll get Taylor wires. I have spare Accel wires but I'm saving them for the other Ty since I don't really like them. lol. I'm sure tomorrow Dave and I will get this running properly! I'll post an update once it is all solved.

 

[Rexxenexx]

Re: It's not running again...

Ok, finally a good update;
Dave got it running again! So big thanks to him taking the time to help out!
He first tried disconnecting the timing advance on the passenger foot area. It was the same, chugging. Then he disconnected the coolant temp. sensor, which put it in full rich mode, and it started! He connected everything back to normal and it started, lol. We're thinking the injectors were clogged/ maybe the fuel was too old or something. I'm kinda' glad it was nothing too serious or something I did up top. I was almost positive the wires were not on all the way but I was wrong.
All the plug wires seemed ok, the only thing is Dave noticed #2 exh. manifold was cold and he could hear a little miss. I honestly couldn't tell since I'm so used to my other Ty's way worse wobbling idle. We'll do a compression test in the near future -on both Ty's- to make sure they are healthy.
Next thing I'm going to do is put the FP gauge on - jump the pump - and push the bleed button to get all the old gas out of the tank and put fresh gas in it. Then I'll pull plug #2 to see if maybe I knocked the ground while putting it in or something. Thanks everyone for your help big-time. It means a lot to me to get this going.
Thanks again to Dave for getting it going finally!

 

[Rexxenexx]

Re: It's not running again...

Here's the sitrep on the blk/blk Ty so far:

1. If I try to start it with the coolant temp sensor plugged in it's very hard to start, most likely won't.

2. When I unplug it it starts up right away. Then I can turn off the Ty and plug it back in and I have more of a chance that it would start, but it still hesitates to start just more likely TO run.

3. If I have it running without the temp sensor plugged in it will try to find an idle but incrementing lower and lower RPM's until it finally stalls. I'm guessing it's running too rich to idle?

4. If I have it running with the temp sensor plugged in it will find idle without stalling.

I emptied the tank and put 10Gal of new 91 gas a couple days ago. It doesn't seem to have helped any. The temp sensor is showing temps on the scanner (Autoxray) so I don't think it has anything to do with that, I could be wrong. When I changed the hose on the fuel pump a while back I extended the lines on the tank so it's easier to drop/install, changed the fuel filter, and changed the fuel pressure regulator. All I've checked for leaks and they look good. I haven't pulled #2 plug I'll do that over the weekend. Any other ideas?

 

[bezerk]

Re: It's not running again...

do you see temps on your scanningtool that are out of bounds? just wondering because i have an idle issue, but it don't seen anything weird on my logs.