HotRudyRod
New member
Ok, I heard 'bout all the benefits of alki injection but i also heard of some more benefits of propane that alki doesn't do, is this true, does it also works for our trucks???
Alcohol vs Propane Injection???
- Thread starter HotRudyRod
- Start date
Tooky
Serious about performance
I don't think anyone has run propane injection on a SyTy so you'll have a hard time finding comments from firsthand experience. Far as I know Brian Green had it on his truck but sold the truck before the propane install was ever completed. I don't think the cooling effect works as well as alcohol.
My opinion (biased, I'll admit), the alcohol is proven and lots of people are using it, see www.turbobuick.com in the Alcohol forum. Your chance of success is greater with something that is known to work.
My opinion (biased, I'll admit), the alcohol is proven and lots of people are using it, see www.turbobuick.com in the Alcohol forum. Your chance of success is greater with something that is known to work.
I cruise the Corvette Forum, and found this post
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=704166
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=704166
I ran it, I believe it works.
I saw NO temperature difference. If you want your intake temps to drop, use water/alky/methanol injection. Propane WILL give you elevated octane levels though.
I didn't explore the propane too much before I got rid of the truck. I didn't like questioning the tank level, worrying about the tank temperature. The OGS propane kit does offer great adjustability though, so that wasn't an issue. For a good propane kit, I think you need a remote pressure gauge in cab to monitor the level, a bottle warmer to maintain good tank pressure if you are in a colder climate, some sort of decent system of tuning (via jets or a duty cycle controlled solenoid). Some people have had poor luck monitoring the tank level; there is definitely some confusion there IMO, and running out of propane at 25psi of boost, while on pump gas, is not my idea of a fun time.
I'm more a proponent of alcohol/methanol injection at this point. I believe the propane can work in such an aplication, but the alcohol is proven many times over, there are good kits available for little money, tuning is easy, the alcohol level is easy to maintain & monitor (as well as cheap). Also, it is easy to integrate safety features in an alky/methanol system.
For $200-400 you can get an alky/meth kit installed with great features, versus $400-700 for a propane setup that is still lacking some of the features the alky/meth kit has.
More people using alky/meth kits means better support & help for troubleshooting and tuning.
Also, for meth stuff, many people use the windshield wash tank as a reservoir, as well as using the fluid. The fluid is cheap, and if you find the right brand, it is 50/50 of methanol and water. This mixture is very popular to run, and gives you great performance.
HEET (or other gas line antifreeze mixtures) all seem to be ~99% methanol - this is what Tooky/Mark have used.
Peak windshield wash (-30 all season mixture) ~36% by weight (methanol has slightly lower sp. gravity than water, so the % by volume might be slightly higher).
Valvoline Pyroil windshield wash fluid - Concentrate is 99.6% by weight, the windshield de-icer (non-concentrated mixture) is 62% by weight
Windshield wash methanol mixtures will vary, which is why I have quoted a name brand of windshield wash; Peak even has other mixtures good to different temperatures. I believe the -30 degree mixture/all season is the most popular. If you have another brand that is easily obtained, it would be worth it to research and find out what the methanol mixture is. Consistency is best, and test to see what works best for your car/truck. I believe 50% methanol mixture is the highest to be found for windshield wash mixtures. There are windshield wash concentrates available that are 95-100% methanol as well. According to some researchers, the 50/50 mixture of methanol & water is the best to run, for good anti-detonation as well as power increases. Don't tune with one tank of windshield wash fluid, then fill up every time with a different brand. Find what works for you, then run that same mixture all the time. Many people who have run pure methanol have started to cut back on the methanol mixture, and found that 50/50 seems to work just as well as 100%. This was the mixture that the fighter planes ran decades ago - usually called 50-50 or something to that effect.
Long rant, sorry, but just ya got me going on the propane, and I wanted to compare the two here.
I saw NO temperature difference. If you want your intake temps to drop, use water/alky/methanol injection. Propane WILL give you elevated octane levels though.
I didn't explore the propane too much before I got rid of the truck. I didn't like questioning the tank level, worrying about the tank temperature. The OGS propane kit does offer great adjustability though, so that wasn't an issue. For a good propane kit, I think you need a remote pressure gauge in cab to monitor the level, a bottle warmer to maintain good tank pressure if you are in a colder climate, some sort of decent system of tuning (via jets or a duty cycle controlled solenoid). Some people have had poor luck monitoring the tank level; there is definitely some confusion there IMO, and running out of propane at 25psi of boost, while on pump gas, is not my idea of a fun time.
I'm more a proponent of alcohol/methanol injection at this point. I believe the propane can work in such an aplication, but the alcohol is proven many times over, there are good kits available for little money, tuning is easy, the alcohol level is easy to maintain & monitor (as well as cheap). Also, it is easy to integrate safety features in an alky/methanol system.
For $200-400 you can get an alky/meth kit installed with great features, versus $400-700 for a propane setup that is still lacking some of the features the alky/meth kit has.
More people using alky/meth kits means better support & help for troubleshooting and tuning.
Also, for meth stuff, many people use the windshield wash tank as a reservoir, as well as using the fluid. The fluid is cheap, and if you find the right brand, it is 50/50 of methanol and water. This mixture is very popular to run, and gives you great performance.
HEET (or other gas line antifreeze mixtures) all seem to be ~99% methanol - this is what Tooky/Mark have used.
Peak windshield wash (-30 all season mixture) ~36% by weight (methanol has slightly lower sp. gravity than water, so the % by volume might be slightly higher).
Valvoline Pyroil windshield wash fluid - Concentrate is 99.6% by weight, the windshield de-icer (non-concentrated mixture) is 62% by weight
Windshield wash methanol mixtures will vary, which is why I have quoted a name brand of windshield wash; Peak even has other mixtures good to different temperatures. I believe the -30 degree mixture/all season is the most popular. If you have another brand that is easily obtained, it would be worth it to research and find out what the methanol mixture is. Consistency is best, and test to see what works best for your car/truck. I believe 50% methanol mixture is the highest to be found for windshield wash mixtures. There are windshield wash concentrates available that are 95-100% methanol as well. According to some researchers, the 50/50 mixture of methanol & water is the best to run, for good anti-detonation as well as power increases. Don't tune with one tank of windshield wash fluid, then fill up every time with a different brand. Find what works for you, then run that same mixture all the time. Many people who have run pure methanol have started to cut back on the methanol mixture, and found that 50/50 seems to work just as well as 100%. This was the mixture that the fighter planes ran decades ago - usually called 50-50 or something to that effect.
Long rant, sorry, but just ya got me going on the propane, and I wanted to compare the two here.
good rant brian.........
I was looking into running washer fluid through my SMC kit cause it seems the bottles of heet are just to expensive and I also heard that the mixture could be dilluted without any adverse effect on performance.
Has anyone did a side-by-side research of alky/meth as far as cooling IAT? Cause from what I have read, meth should be better all the way around, higher octane as well as cooling.
propane was an option when I was shopping but I came accross some of the things Brian talked about and figured alky was the way to go. It will do everything the propane will do but then some in the way of cooling air charge. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe with Meth you can acheive almost the same octance rating as with propane.
and damn I hate refilling those freakin bottles :x
I was looking into running washer fluid through my SMC kit cause it seems the bottles of heet are just to expensive and I also heard that the mixture could be dilluted without any adverse effect on performance.
Has anyone did a side-by-side research of alky/meth as far as cooling IAT? Cause from what I have read, meth should be better all the way around, higher octane as well as cooling.
propane was an option when I was shopping but I came accross some of the things Brian talked about and figured alky was the way to go. It will do everything the propane will do but then some in the way of cooling air charge. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe with Meth you can acheive almost the same octance rating as with propane.
and damn I hate refilling those freakin bottles :x
Lynn D. Brown
New member
The data for these 2 hydrocarbons is readily available. The basic differences are :
Methanol (MeOH)/H2O is much heavier and and will give U more fuel per gal.
It also has a higher heat of vaporization, so the same amount will give more cooling.
Propane has an Octane of ~ 98 vs about 110 for MeOH.
The only advantage of Propane (C3) is that it is a gas at room temperature. Therefore it has to be under pressure to be a liquid. So, a pressurized cylinder of C3 will not require a pump. However the pressure in the cylinder will vary w Temp., and will drop at lower T's.
I see no reason to use C3.
Methanol (MeOH)/H2O is much heavier and and will give U more fuel per gal.
It also has a higher heat of vaporization, so the same amount will give more cooling.
Propane has an Octane of ~ 98 vs about 110 for MeOH.
The only advantage of Propane (C3) is that it is a gas at room temperature. Therefore it has to be under pressure to be a liquid. So, a pressurized cylinder of C3 will not require a pump. However the pressure in the cylinder will vary w Temp., and will drop at lower T's.
I see no reason to use C3.
I'm biased as well. Tho i'm currently working on making a propane progressive. The progressive selenoid arrived in the mail last week.. so it needs a circuit made and tweaked..then see how it goes.
My take is the dunno if the tank is empty or full, and as Brian said, having low gas pressure at 25 PSI is no fun.
Problem with propane is its a fuel, and cannot be administered with a set pressure switch level, if not the motor bogs..same deal with alky. The current propane selenoids are not designed to be modulated at and high interval. 25hz is the fastest they can handle before hanging due to weight of piston within selenoid and its spring.
Alky is proven, and with proper setup can be taken to the next level. Look at NOS systems and theyre progression from a single plate to 3 stage multi-nozzle setups. Evolution makes things better.
How bout a wet NOS system using methanol for enrichment vs gasoline
hehe
My take is the dunno if the tank is empty or full, and as Brian said, having low gas pressure at 25 PSI is no fun.
Problem with propane is its a fuel, and cannot be administered with a set pressure switch level, if not the motor bogs..same deal with alky. The current propane selenoids are not designed to be modulated at and high interval. 25hz is the fastest they can handle before hanging due to weight of piston within selenoid and its spring.
Alky is proven, and with proper setup can be taken to the next level. Look at NOS systems and theyre progression from a single plate to 3 stage multi-nozzle setups. Evolution makes things better.
How bout a wet NOS system using methanol for enrichment vs gasoline
hehe
HotRudyRod
New member
Thanks Guys
Thanks Guys
Is the water injection kit the same as the alki one? Will cold water/meth or alcohol make any diference on the intake temperature? Also what do you guys think of those intercooler chiller kits from nitrous express and some other companies, would they make a significant amount of power/cooling to be worth the money. Can't you just install a hydrogen or some other freezing gas bottle on the passenger seat and run a hi pressure line with some nozzles pointing to the IC?
Thanks Guys that made it more than clear but then it opened new room for new questions, hehe.
Thanks Guys
Is the water injection kit the same as the alki one? Will cold water/meth or alcohol make any diference on the intake temperature? Also what do you guys think of those intercooler chiller kits from nitrous express and some other companies, would they make a significant amount of power/cooling to be worth the money. Can't you just install a hydrogen or some other freezing gas bottle on the passenger seat and run a hi pressure line with some nozzles pointing to the IC?
Thanks Guys that made it more than clear but then it opened new room for new questions, hehe.
Lynn D. Brown
New member
Rudy,
Yes the water kit is the same as the Alky kit - U can use straight water or a water/Alky mix. Yes it will cool as the water and Alky evaporate.
No Hydrogen wouldn't work because it isn't a liquid until about -460 Deg F. It is the lighter element in the world, and has the lowest boiling point possible, so making it into a liquid is very expensive.
Yes the water kit is the same as the Alky kit - U can use straight water or a water/Alky mix. Yes it will cool as the water and Alky evaporate.
No Hydrogen wouldn't work because it isn't a liquid until about -460 Deg F. It is the lighter element in the world, and has the lowest boiling point possible, so making it into a liquid is very expensive.
Don W.
Stab it and steer it
FYI
Not sure ‘bout propane “injection” (I’d like to see a kit). However, as a fuel replacement propane arrives at the engine as a dry gas with no temp reducing ability like gasoline. The same should be true if used a supplement in our engines. The BTU content is per LIQUID gallon, not gallon of vapor so usage won’t change much compared to alki. Gasoline “cools” because of the heat required to change it from a liquid to a vapor. Propane is already a vapor when it gets to the engine.
Hope that made some sense.
Don
Not sure ‘bout propane “injection” (I’d like to see a kit). However, as a fuel replacement propane arrives at the engine as a dry gas with no temp reducing ability like gasoline. The same should be true if used a supplement in our engines. The BTU content is per LIQUID gallon, not gallon of vapor so usage won’t change much compared to alki. Gasoline “cools” because of the heat required to change it from a liquid to a vapor. Propane is already a vapor when it gets to the engine.
Hope that made some sense.
Don
HotRudyRod
New member
It did---
It did---
It did make sense, i just understood that cold gasoline or frozen gas (if you could get it) or ice and meth could make a diference, were undertood. I mean, why would i throw water in the tank while i can just put ice in it. It would melt pretty soon. I just hope i have the right stuff to get this Syclone with with a pit bull chip and NOS. Hey guys just help me out here please. This dude is runnin his Syclone on NOS on a prettty hot weather and im worried bout the nitrous.
It did---
It did make sense, i just understood that cold gasoline or frozen gas (if you could get it) or ice and meth could make a diference, were undertood. I mean, why would i throw water in the tank while i can just put ice in it. It would melt pretty soon. I just hope i have the right stuff to get this Syclone with with a pit bull chip and NOS. Hey guys just help me out here please. This dude is runnin his Syclone on NOS on a prettty hot weather and im worried bout the nitrous.
I dont know why people say NOS is a cooler. See the reason fo WI/AI is to reduce intake air temps, and in the case of alky..burn a higher octane fuel.. so they are used for reducing detonation. So if the motor is knocking, spray WI/AI and the knock goes away. Now if the motor is knocking..spray NOS.. the crankshaft goes away. make sense?
The use of chillers on the IC is another way.. I dont know the effects on bringing the temps down on the aluminum if it could lead to cracking or...
The use of chillers on the IC is another way.. I dont know the effects on bringing the temps down on the aluminum if it could lead to cracking or...
Lynn D. Brown
New member
C3 vs Alky
C3 vs Alky
fuel replacement propane arrives at the engine as a dry gas with no temp reducing ability like gasoline.
Don,
Yes C3 is a gas when it reaches the engine, but it "flashed" vigorously from the liquid state in the bottle, and created some decent cooling back where it came in. There is no doubt - it will flash - it has no choice since it is way above its boiling point, whereas only the "light ends" of gasoline will actually evaporate and give cooling. Propane probably gives more cooling than anything other than Nitrous, which also has no choice but to evaporate.
Alot of this depends on the boiling point of the fuels involved, and they vary significantly. I didn't want to get into a long winded dissertation.
C3 vs Alky
fuel replacement propane arrives at the engine as a dry gas with no temp reducing ability like gasoline.
Don,
Yes C3 is a gas when it reaches the engine, but it "flashed" vigorously from the liquid state in the bottle, and created some decent cooling back where it came in. There is no doubt - it will flash - it has no choice since it is way above its boiling point, whereas only the "light ends" of gasoline will actually evaporate and give cooling. Propane probably gives more cooling than anything other than Nitrous, which also has no choice but to evaporate.
Alot of this depends on the boiling point of the fuels involved, and they vary significantly. I didn't want to get into a long winded dissertation.
Don W.
Stab it and steer it
Re: C3 vs Alky
Re: C3 vs Alky
Yup. Where I’m commin’ from is the area of carburetion where the engine runs on 100% propane. In this case (except for very small engines) liquid propane comes from the tank and is passed through a vaporizer (Usually heated by engine coolant) and delivered to a propane carburetor as a gas at close to ambient temp. This done because when propane is the only fuel used the tank would soon “freeze up” as it cannot produce vapor in the quantities required.
Regards,
Don
Re: C3 vs Alky
Lynn D. Brown said:
Yup. Where I’m commin’ from is the area of carburetion where the engine runs on 100% propane. In this case (except for very small engines) liquid propane comes from the tank and is passed through a vaporizer (Usually heated by engine coolant) and delivered to a propane carburetor as a gas at close to ambient temp. This done because when propane is the only fuel used the tank would soon “freeze up” as it cannot produce vapor in the quantities required.
Regards,
Don