Budget/reliability rebuild

[Bad Ass Black Trucks]

Alright, looks like the head gasket was compromised on my 110k motor at #1 and #5. I wasn't planning on doing a rebuild at this point in time... and would have have bargained more for my Ty had I realized that it had such a big problem. I knew the turbo needed rebuilt and the previous owner said that the valve seals needed to be replaced...
but I have been known to make lemonade out of lemons.

So here's the plan; Budget and reliability are the name of the game with the stock block. I will be building a performance motor in the future with another block, but I need my Ty to be my daily driver soon and I'm looking to buy a 93' Ty with 34k on the clock. So needless to say, money is tight!

Clean up the stock block
Stock Crank - Polished, maybe magnifluxed
L35 rods - (anybody have some for sale?) I have at least 6 good LT1 PM 5.7" rods left from my truck, but I figured that they wouldn't be much better than stock after having them narrowed to fit the crank journals.
TRW - Speed pro forged pistons TRW 4.00" forged dished pistons I'm not necessarily a fan of Speed Pro, but they are forged and have to be better than the cast high silicon content stockers. Assuming the block is withing spec, a 4.00" piston will save on machining costs. And the dish is about right for the compression ratio (8.24:1 with 64cc head). Haven't looked into the compression height yet . See any problems with em?
Stock Nodular 2 bolt main caps - ARP bolts
Possibly L35 Heads - (Anybody selling?) I figure the LB4's need a valve job and cleaned up, it may be cheaper to get a set of L35's that don't need much work.

-Stock rockers and pushrods
-New timing set, bearings, rings, gaskets, etc.
-New lifters if needed
-Needs a new radiator
-Rebuilding the stock turbo with a kit from Gpopshop.com

Questions:
-What head gasket should I use with this build?
-Should I keep the stock oil pump? I know to avoid Melling.

I have looked at other builds people have done and didn't find anything exactly like what I am going for. I'm sure I have left something off but would appreciate any input you guys may have.

Thanks

And just for reference, the following mods are on the truck:
-255 LPH in tank
-Cleaned and flow matched injectors
-AFPR
-3 Bar
-Tune is unknown to me
-Greddy EBC
-ATR catback with test pipe
-Edelbrock high flow WP with 160 stat
-Taylor wires
-Stock IC with high volume pump

 

[sy#2921]

Re: Budget/reliability rebuild

Get your block checked out before you buy pistons to make sure you do not need and overbore. Other than that it looks like a good plan. Dont get caught up and go crazy with a turbo or get power hungry which will cause you to get outside of the budget.

I have a set of rods and pistons from a late model balance shaft motor that I am willing to get rid of. I know the pistons are junk but rods should still be good. I will send you a pm about them.

 

[supersports10]

Re: Budget/reliability rebuild

So here's the plan; Budget and reliability are the name of the game with the stock block. I will be building a performance motor in the future with another block, but I need my Ty to be my daily driver soon and I'm looking to buy a 93' Ty with 34k on the clock. So needless to say, money is tight!

honestly i would look online at the salvage yards, and get a 96-present low mileage vortec long block, and swap it in for CHEAP, RELIABLE, and quick build that will cost you 1000 or less

then you can take your time building the original block as you choose over time.

 

[sy445]

Re: Budget/reliability rebuild

Chances are you are going to have to go bigger than a 4" bore piston with that much mileage

Definitely magnaflux the crank! I come across many even fire cast cranks from buicks to 4.3's that have detonated at one point with cracks in them. Somwhere around 30-40% of them actually. It can take little detonation to crack them. Previous owner of my truck detonated bad enough to break a "CAST" piston, tore up main bearings and wiped out the crank. I fluxed the crank and it was fine. Sometimes they can handle abuse.



Eagle h-beam rods are a good bang for the buck. If your going to get a forged piston and put arp bolts in the main caps you might as well at least spend some cash on the rods. Nothing is strong enough to resist detonation, but good parts can add a little room for error. Especially w/ these trucks. This way the shortblock will be all around stronger and if one day you want to go faster its there. :2cents:

4.3 v-6 rods have a bigger rod journal diameter than a small block chevy so lt-1 rods wont work, besides the difference in offset.

 

[Bad Ass Black Trucks]

Re: Budget/reliability rebuild

honestly i would look online at the salvage yards, and get a 96-present low mileage vortec long block, and swap it in for CHEAP, RELIABLE, and quick build that will cost you 1000 or less

then you can take your time building the original block as you choose over time.

I was looking at that option. I have read most of E-rule's threads on his balance shaft builds. It does look like a good idea. My concern was the compression with the stock pistons. Then I was thinking I could throw in some forged dished pistons... Then I figured why tear down a motor just to throw pistons in, I'd have to get it balanced all over again.

What is a good deal for a used vortec motor? (roughly) From e-rule's threads it looked like an 03'+ would be a good idea because they had an updated timing chain tenisoner. I may go that route if I find a good deal.

 

[Bad Ass Black Trucks]

Re: Budget/reliability rebuild

Chances are you are going to have to go bigger than a 4" bore piston with that much mileage

Definitely magnaflux the crank! I come across many even fire cast cranks from buicks to 4.3's that have detonated at one point with cracks in them. Somwhere around 30-40% of them actually. It can take little detonation to crack them. Previous owner of my truck detonated bad enough to break a "CAST" piston, tore up main bearings and wiped out the crank. I fluxed the crank and it was fine. Sometimes they can handle abuse.



Eagle h-beam rods are a good bang for the buck. If your going to get a forged piston and put arp bolts in the main caps you might as well at least spend some cash on the rods. Nothing is strong enough to resist detonation, but good parts can add a little room for error. Especially w/ these trucks. This way the shortblock will be all around stronger and if one day you want to go faster its there. :2cents:

4.3 v-6 rods have a bigger rod journal diameter than a small block chevy so lt-1 rods wont work, besides the difference in offset.

Thanks for the info. I'll be sure to check the bores before I go to far. And I know what you mean about getting some descent rods. It's a lot of work to pull the motor out of one of these. I want to bite the bullet and do it right. I just have to be careful not to this turn into another 'toy' and keep some money in my wallet. My sonoma has been relegated to sunny days and track duty. The future wife doesn't like that or the fuel cell in the bed either!

 

[sean]

Re: Budget/reliability rebuild

I was looking at that option. I have read most of E-rule's threads on his balance shaft builds. It does look like a good idea. My concern was the compression with the stock pistons. Then I was thinking I could throw in some forged dished pistons... Then I figured why tear down a motor just to throw pistons in, I'd have to get it balanced all over again.

What is a good deal for a used vortec motor? (roughly) From e-rule's threads it looked like an 03'+ would be a good idea because they had an updated timing chain tenisoner. I may go that route if I find a good deal.

where did you find the threads at?

 

[SCWolverine]

Re: Budget/reliability rebuild

where did you find the threads at?

Here's one http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=53415&highlight=balance+shaft+block

E-RUE also mentions documenting it on his site (TurboTime).

 

[Windedv6]

Re: Budget/reliability rebuild

I don't know what your time frame is, but I am upgrading my AWD motor and may be selling my Eagle rods and SRP pistons. They are for a .20 over bore. I am probably going to start taking it apart in the next 2 weeks.

John

 

[Bad Ass Black Trucks]

Re: Budget/reliability rebuild

Finally made some headway.
Got a good deal on a 93' Balance shaft long block. Everything was magnafluxed, hot tanked and shot peened. 4 bolt mains, ported L35 heads w/ 2.02 & 1.60 valves, 3 angle valve job and pro-form roller rockers. Has a mild crane cam, 1439801. It does have L35 rods with ARP bolts. Apparently some guy got $3,500 deep into it and ran out of money. The machine shop just wanted to get rid of it.

The bad: It is a balance shaft motor and so the block is weaker. Has TRW 4.00 forged flat tops with valve reliefs. Guessing it's the stock blazer S-10 crank. Don't know if it is internally balanced or balanced for flexplate & damper. Don't know if the rockers are 1.5 or 1.6.

Questions:
-How much HP can the balance shaft block handle? Since it has 4 bolt mains I was thinking of adding some H-beams and some dished SRPs, replacing the cam with a comp 410 or 412. Maybe even converting the vortec heads I have sitting around. But I don't want to push the limits of the block.

-Should I leave the balance shaft in the motor? How much HP does one sap up?

-Is there a difference between the SyTy crank and the stock blazer/S10 part?

-Keep the TRW-L2256F pistons in it? I'm not a huge fan of SRP pistons, but it is balanced now and if the L35 heads have a 76cc combustion chamber (Do they?) then the compression comes to 8.52:1 according to Summit. That should be tunable without much trouble.

I guess in the end I'm asking whether I should leave it alone or turn up the wick. :roll: I may have a little bit of money to do so. I figure if I'm putting dished pistons in and getting it re-balanced I may as well put H-beams in.

It still needs to serve daily driver duty and I can always build up the stock block later.

Going to use a freshly rebuilt stock turbo and stock IC for now. Upgrading those later.

 

[supersports10]

Re: Budget/reliability rebuild

honestly, i would install it, and run it the way it is.

flat tops with 4 valve reliefs are gonna yeild about 9.5:1 to 10:1 with l35 heads.

l35 heads are 64cc. all 4.3 heads are, lb4, l35, vortec all 64cc.

with this much compression you will need less boost to acheve the same horsepower level.

example.....with the old 8.25:1 let's say it took 15 psi to acheve 300 hp, and say 400ft lb

with the new 9.5 - 10:1 lets speculate that it only takes 8-10 psi to achieve the 300 hp, and 400 ft lb.

keep an eye on knock it will be critical to the longevity of this combo.

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Budget/reliability rebuild

I would run it as is. The heads/pistons should result in 9.5:1 compression if the heads or cam haven't been decked. It should much more than 9.6:1 or 9.7:1 with them machined. The cam is fine for forced inducton (its definately a step up from stock).

 

[Bad Ass Black Trucks]

Re: Budget/reliability rebuild

So is the balance shaft motor that much weaker? Or just don't mess with something that's not bad to begin with?

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Budget/reliability rebuild

So is the balance shaft motor that much weaker? Or just don't mess with something that's not bad to begin with?

As I understand it, you have an already built short block with a set of upgraded heads. If you pull out the piston, rods, cam, swap the heads. You basically have a set heads to sell, valvetrain to reuse and block and crank that was machined. It seems like you would be redoing a lot of what you bought, It should work so don't mess with it.

 

[Bad Ass Black Trucks]

Re: Budget/reliability rebuild

As I understand it, you have an already built short block with a set of upgraded heads. If you pull out the piston, rods, cam, swap the heads. You basically have a set heads to sell, valvetrain to reuse and block and crank that was machined. It seems like you would be redoing a lot of what you bought, It should work so don't mess with it.

The stock block and it's cast piston glory will be rebuilt at some point, whether in two months or two years I don't know. It may be a very mild build with some parts out of the long block in question, or it may be stout. I don't know yet. So only a few of the parts will have to be sold off. And I'm always working on something, so who knows when I'll need a set of 4.00 pistons.

And I do apologize shifting my ideas around. My origional plan was to go cheap and as reliable as possible. 2 bolt billet caps, L35 rods, L35 heads while I was in there, TRW dished pistons and whatever else. At that, I got a suggestion to do H-beams. Then I thought about doing 4 bolt caps in case I wanted to turn up the boost later. Then I came across a vortec modded lower manifold at the same time I found a deal on a pair of vortec heads. So plans have been changing. And right now I'm surprised to have a little more money set aside for this build than I thought. The good deal on the long block didn't hurt. On top of that I got more out of a procharger I had sitting around than expected.

I am, however, still curious to hear estimates on how much a 4 bolt balance shaft block can take. I also have no intentions of ditching the crank if it is as strong as a SyTy or nearly so. I agree the cam isn't bad for a mild motor, definetly an upgrade over stock. I could use it now or save it for later. I'm indifferent on the heads. I could modify the vortecs and sell them, or use them on this motor. But ported L35's don't sound like a bad option and would save me time and money in the short term.

Now the flat top TRW's are a concern. The heads would have obviously had some material removed. As of now I don't know how much was taken off. Getting near or over 10:1 on a turbo motor is not a good idea in my opinion. And the TRW's aren't expensive as far as forged slugs go. About $250 for six from summit. Only thing is that it would have to be re-balanced. But if it was setup for internal balance I would have to get the flexplate zero balanced and get a zero-balance harmonic balancer anyway (I haven't heard of the average SyTy guy doing internal balance, has anyone?)