Dry Sump 101?

[Drag SGT]

Could one of you knowledgable individuals enlighten me about dry sump oil pans? A couple of shops I've talked to have mentioned running dry sump, and I know it's to keep oil pressure all throughout the engine for hard turns or hard launches, but that's about it. Basically, what's it take to run dry sump and what modifications are necessary? Since I'm going LSx I'm sure the smaller details are probably different from Dry Sumping a 4.3, but right now, I just need to know the basics. If anybody can write one, or knows of a good write-up explaining the mechanics and whatnot, that'd be great. TIA!

~Chris~

 

[0260IN3]

Re: Dry Sump 101?

http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/tech_faq.html

A dry sump provides a better, more consistent oil flow and is less likely to cavitate at sustained high rpm.

Peterson has a good FAQ section I posted above that will answer most of your questions, and also saves me typing more than I have to................LOL.


If you need more quetsions answered, let me know. We run dry sumps on our race cars and many customers engines as well.

Mark

 

[jbone]

Re: Dry Sump 101?

has anyone done this on a sy/ty??

 

[jwaller]

Re: Dry Sump 101?

you have to use a block designed to be a dry sump block. stock blocks are not setup for this. so bowtie is the only way to go and only some of them can be done this way. Big bucks are required so it's not for the armchair mechanics.

 

[Windedv6]

Re: Dry Sump 101?

Here are some pics...dry sumps are not for the faint of heart. Actually it's not for any of us syty, 4.3er's. I just happen to know of some idot who is doing it and got some pics...

John

 

[Drag SGT]

Re: Dry Sump 101?

Ok, so here's few more questions. Winded, where are you puting the oil tank at in the Ty? And it appears, from the one or two cases that I've read *and both were LS1's* that the LSx engines don't require a special bowtie block like the 4.3's. I believe that the new LS7's are actually dry sump too... *correct me if I'm wrong* I wonder if the same can be easily done to the LS2 since it's a 4th gen like the 7. Thanks for the link 0260n3, I'll make sure to read over it a couple times.

 

[Windedv6]

Re: Dry Sump 101?

Dry Sump motors have been around for a long time. Circle track as well as drag cars have found benefits with this setup in both hp and reliability on extreme use applications. For the average weekend race warrior it's overkill and probably unreliable, as it is not something that can be ignored like an intank pump. There are more moving parts that can wear out or break, the potiental of a belt problem and many hoses and seals that can leak. Also you have to make sure that the lines are full at startup, especially if the vehcile has been sitting for long period of time.

I am using a custom made oil pan vs a separate tank. This setup is slightly different from a true dry sump, but acomplishes basically the same result. All the oil from the top side of the engine is scavaged out of the heads and lifter valley. None of this oil flows on to the cam or crank, freeing them of the parasitic cling and weight of the extra top side oil. The pan is built with a full front to rear cover and screen to trap away as much oil from the crank and keep it in the lower portion of the pan itself. Scavenaged oil from the top of the engine and from the turbos is pumped into the lower portion of the of the pan which is enventually sucked out via the external pump and back into the front oil gallery of the motor. The system holds aproximately 6.5 quarts of oil. You don't want to know the cost.

John

 

['JustDreamin']

Re: Dry Sump 101?

Ok, so here's few more questions. Winded, where are you puting the oil tank at in the Ty? And it appears, from the one or two cases that I've read *and both were LS1's* that the LSx engines don't require a special bowtie block like the 4.3's. I believe that the new LS7's are actually dry sump too... *correct me if I'm wrong* I wonder if the same can be easily done to the LS2 since it's a 4th gen like the 7. Thanks for the link 0260n3, I'll make sure to read over it a couple times.

Hey, something I know something about.....

The LS7 is a factory dry sump system, first one for GM. The normal LSx motors run the oil pump just behind the front cover, and the crank snout actually drives the pump rotor. The LS7 uses a special crank and pump that has two rotors in it, 1 for scavenge (sucking the oil out of the pan and sending it to the tank), and the other for pressure (sucking from the tank and sending to the engine). In order to set up an LS2 or other LSx motor, you've got to have the LS7 crankshaft (4.0" stroke), LS7 oilpump, and maybe the front cover.


Biggest question I have for you is WHY? Why are you looking to do a dry sump setup? Is it a fitment issue or something else? I would expect to spend a fair bit of money on any of the drysump systems and there probably isn't a huge performance benefit (might make few more ponies due to drawing a vacuum in the crankcase) compared to the cost. With any of the aftermarket pumps I'd be concerned about having a belt driven oil pump, loose a belt, loose a motor.

I've got a LQ4 (6.0L LSx truck motor, basically iron block LS2) in my Bravada with a custom made oil pan. There are a few pics on my CarDomain site, but they're not that great (since its in the truck and the front diff is out).

'JustDreamin'

 

[tyndago]

Re: Dry Sump 101?

Dry sump. I had this one bite me road racing. Even the best baffled sump, swinging oil pickup, at 1.5 gs cornering, 1g decel, with uncover the pickup, and see a drop in oil pressure.

With a fast car, on a violent launch, all the oil will travel to the rear of the engine. If you need a visual, imagine 1 G. Thats the force of gravity. Take the block and oil pan, and stand it up on the flywheel. Thats 1 G. Whats going to happen to all the oil ? Its going to try and pool at the back of the block, far away from the pickup.

Do this enough, or a little low on oil, or with a fast enough car, you get those air bubbles in the oiling system, and some metal on metal contact.

99.9% of the people aren't going to need it. But if you are the 0.01%, then you have to make it work. It might be expensive, but less expensive than replacing engines.

 

['JustDreamin']

Re: Dry Sump 101?

Dry sump. I had this one bite me road racing. Even the best baffled sump, swinging oil pickup, at 1.5 gs cornering, 1g decel, with uncover the pickup, and see a drop in oil pressure.

With a fast car, on a violent launch, all the oil will travel to the rear of the engine. If you need a visual, imagine 1 G. Thats the force of gravity. Take the block and oil pan, and stand it up on the flywheel. Thats 1 G. Whats going to happen to all the oil ? Its going to try and pool at the back of the block, far away from the pickup.

Do this enough, or a little low on oil, or with a fast enough car, you get those air bubbles in the oiling system, and some metal on metal contact.

99.9% of the people aren't going to need it. But if you are the 0.01%, then you have to make it work. It might be expensive, but less expensive than replacing engines.

You are correct, for certain applications (that .01%) it is necessary and worth the investment. My question was to the effect of "why do you think you need a dry sump? (are you in that .01% or is somebody telling you that dry sump is the only way to get this to fit)".

'JustDreamin'

 

[Drag SGT]

Re: Dry Sump 101?

You are correct, for certain applications (that .01%) it is necessary and worth the investment. My question was to the effect of "why do you think you need a dry sump? (are you in that .01% or is somebody telling you that dry sump is the only way to get this to fit)".

'JustDreamin'

I've been considering for a couple of reasons. The first was that the truck is being used for drag racing, and I want to cover all of my bases. The second reason, was to possibly avoid, or lessen the amount of metal I have to cut out of the crossmember to make the oilpan fit. However, looking at Winded V6's pictures, the pump system (?) appears to take the place of the a/c, which is also another thing I want to avoid, since I'd have to notch out the side frame. I haven't been able to find a picture of a dry sump system in a Corvette or F-Body yet though, and the placements might be different. Right now, I'm just not sure, and I'm constantly exploring possibilities because the engine is going to get done last.. and hopefully only get done once... :lol:

 

[ghettosled]

Re: Dry Sump 101?

well they make different types of pumps, which mount forward/backward pass. or driver side.. So if you need to you can make the pump fit.

The only downside is it takes up alot of space (tank, pump and lines) and it costs alot of money. I would guestimate close to $5k for a complete dry sump oiling system with pan, lines, pump, tank, etc.

This compared to a $95 high volume melling pump with stud kit, drive mandrel and pickup.

If it's a purpose built race car, i think its worth it.. For a street car with A/C, powersteering and all that nonsense, then it would be overkill.

 

['JustDreamin']

Re: Dry Sump 101?

I've been considering for a couple of reasons. The first was that the truck is being used for drag racing, and I want to cover all of my bases. The second reason, was to possibly avoid, or lessen the amount of metal I have to cut out of the crossmember to make the oilpan fit. However, looking at Winded V6's pictures, the pump system (?) appears to take the place of the a/c, which is also another thing I want to avoid, since I'd have to notch out the side frame. I haven't been able to find a picture of a dry sump system in a Corvette or F-Body yet though, and the placements might be different. Right now, I'm just not sure, and I'm constantly exploring possibilities because the engine is going to get done last.. and hopefully only get done once... :lol:

I keep forgetting you're working on a GT, not a Sy or Ty.....

Most of the 2wd swaps I've seen do involve cutting the crossmember, but only because its easier than modifying the oilpan (welding steel vs alum).

For my Bravada, I took a completely different route. I knew that modifying a cast alum pan to clear the front diff was going to be difficult if not completely impossible, I just built a new pan. A couple of pieces of CRS flat bar (I think I used 3/8" x 2"), a 2' x 4' piece of 16 ga steel, 4.5" grinder, jigsaw, MIG, Drillpress, and some tin snips were all that was really needed. I did end up using a bandsaw, since I have one at work, but could have gotten away without it. It wasn't all that hard. I consider myself a decent fabricator, but I am by no means an expert. It wasn't the hardest part of the LSx swap into my Bravada.

Most drag vehicles I've seen use wet sumps. For acceleration in one direction only, you can make a wet sump work pretty decent. Road courses are where wet sumps run the biggest risk of letting you down due to acceleration in 4 directions (drag + braking + left corner + right corner).

Cost wise, the dry sump setup is pricey. I'd expect to spend $2000 to $5000+ (depending upon if you use any used equipment or not, but all the hoses and fittings, and such really add up).

The internal dry sump used on the LS7 would certainly be worth looking at. Would require a new crank, but if you're building a LSx motor from scratch, you may be doing that anyway.

And lastly, there's things you can do to make a wet sump more reliable. Like an Accusump (I think thats what its called). Basically its a cylinder used to store oil under pressure. The oil pump pushes it in under pressure and it returns oil to the motor in the event that the oil pump isn't supplying oil.


One more thing to mention. There's alot of discussion on LS1tech.com about LSx's into S10's (in the Conversions & Hybrids Forum). You might check there (if you haven't already) for some more info on oilpan / crossmember interference.


'JustDreamin'