engine building

[syty9933]

I finaly verified with a leak down test that my rings are worn and need a rebuild. My dad is saying that if it needs to be rebuilt he wants a friend that has been building v8s for decades to do it. I have a couple questions about this. First how hard is it going to be somone with no syclone experience to build it , and two my dad thinks i should send the whole truck up there for him to not only build the engine but to put it all back together. I think it would seem more logical for me to take the block out myself (because even though ive never taken the block out ,ive taken eveything apart down to the top of the block half off and put it back together half a dozen times ) get him to build it in put it in myself. Because it seems like it would be very difficult for somone with no syty experience to do so.I know you guys are the best in the world to disscus these topics with and deffiantly want to know your opinions on this first,

thanks alot

 

[gkrcr882]

Re: engine building

It's not rocket science building an engine, it just takes a good eye towards measurements and cleanliness. Make sure that you are the one that buys and supplies the parts, so that normal 4.3 pistons don't end up inside there or anything. Recommendations would be forged pistons, Eagle rods, and ARP hardware. Obviously if the block needs to be machined or decked, have it done and honing goes without saying. Also wise to have the rotating assembly balanced before having it installed. While it's all apart its a great time to gasket-match the ports or upgrade to L35 (or Vortec if you can swing it) heads. While they're off' its also a good time to have them gone through with new valve guides and seals put in, along with checking for straightness and milling if need be. Change the motor mounts while you're in there, and just clean things up in general.


As far as taking it apart yourself, make sure you label all the connectors and take more pictures that you think you need. It will make things tons easier when its time to re-install. Take your time and it will be fine, Mandi (Mrs Harmon) is/was removing the engine from her Sy not too long ago and took some pictures of the process.

 

[syty9933]

Re: engine building

It's not rocket science building an engine, it just takes a good eye towards measurements and cleanliness. Make sure that you are the one that buys and supplies the parts, so that normal 4.3 pistons don't end up inside there or anything. Recommendations would be forged pistons, Eagle rods, and ARP hardware. Obviously if the block needs to be machined or decked, have it done and honing goes without saying. Also wise to have the rotating assembly balanced before having it installed. While it's all apart its a great time to gasket-match the ports or upgrade to L35 (or Vortec if you can swing it) heads. While they're off' its also a good time to have them gone through with new valve guides and seals put in, along with checking for straightness and milling if need be. Change the motor mounts while you're in there, and just clean things up in general.


As far as taking it apart yourself, make sure you label all the connectors and take more pictures that you think you need. It will make things tons easier when its time to re-install. Take your time and it will be fine, Mandi (Mrs Harmon) is/was removing the engine from her Sy not too long ago and took some pictures of the process.

Thats what i was thinking, that if you could build a 350 its just two less cylinders with lower compression, different specs etc.I guess my main concern is thato you think someone with no syty experience could build it all back togeter and get it running or do you think it would be a nightmare for him to piece it all back together right and that i should just take the block out to save time and money?

 

[ghettosled]

Re: engine building

the machining and assembly can be handled by any respected and professional engine builder. if you know how to run your machines and use the proper inspection equipment (micrometers, bore gauges, etc) you should be fine. I always recommend one person to do the A-Z overall. Less people pointing fingers, and one person is responsible for how it runs.

The only HUGE problem i see is if a person has no SYTY experience how are they going to tune it, verify any engine data via datamaster, make sure all your lines, hoses, and wires are routed properly, etc. 99% of the engine failures have nothing to do with the guy building the motors, it has to do with the installer who just assumes that because the motor is fully built with forged internals it will last forever.

I would spend some time finding a reputable shop/person close by who knows SYTY's in and out.

Tearing down your old engine and removing it from the engine bay can be extremely helpful IF you careful label and organize all loose pieces, hardware etc. If you just dump everything into a bucket and dont clean any parts it will take 2x as long to put it all back together.

my $.02

 

[syty9933]

Re: engine building

the machining and assembly can be handled by any respected and professional engine builder. if you know how to run your machines and use the proper inspection equipment (micrometers, bore gauges, etc) you should be fine. I always recommend one person to do the A-Z overall. Less people pointing fingers, and one person is responsible for how it runs.

The only HUGE problem i see is if a person has no SYTY experience how are they going to tune it, verify any engine data via datamaster, make sure all your lines, hoses, and wires are routed properly, etc. 99% of the engine failures have nothing to do with the guy building the motors, it has to do with the installer who just assumes that because the motor is fully built with forged internals it will last forever.

I would spend some time finding a reputable shop/person close by who knows SYTY's in and out.

Tearing down your old engine and removing it from the engine bay can be extremely helpful IF you careful label and organize all loose pieces, hardware etc. If you just dump everything into a bucket and dont clean any parts it will take 2x as long to put it all back together.

my $.02

thanks, i think i will take the block out myself , order all the right parts to get it built by the builder, then when he finishes building it , ill put the engine in and hook it all up. I am pretty confident i can put it back to together well if I label all the bolts, wires, etc., and then i guess ill get someone to do a custom tune on it. And im planning on getting a cheap laptop so i can run datamaster full time to make sure somthing like knock can be seen immediatly.

 

[nallj92]

Re: engine building

sometimes the builder can get the hard parts cheaper than you can, I would give him a list of specific parts you want with your best price and part number, If he can get them for the same price or cheaper, let him. If not, order up the parts yourself.

 

[BoostedSUV]

Re: engine building

sometimes the builder can get the hard parts cheaper than you can, I would give him a list of specific parts you want with your best price and part number, If he can get them for the same price or cheaper, let him. If not, order up the parts yourself.

X2... Builders deal with more suppliers therforer many times can get better prices on parts. I took my motor to a reputable shop with no sy/ty experience... I gave him a list of parts I wanted to use and told him to call me when it's done. A good engine builder is a good engine builder regardless of the application... Its the internal parts that are application specific and and long as they know what to use you shouldn't have any issues...

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: engine building

I wish I could agree with that Dave, I mean, I do to a point but hey, how many dealerships have we seen half destroy these things? The SYTY engine bay is no slouch when it comes to confusion. I have known owners that have a hard time. We don't really know anything about the builder here, he could only have small block carb experience for all we know and could flip at the sight of fuel injection.

IMO, the more you do yourself the better off you are.

 

[midnightbluS10]

Re: engine building

How many dealerships? In the last 9 years I don't remember any off the top of my head.

 

[gkrcr882]

Re: engine building

Few dealers will actually rebuild an engine, its more cost-effective (less labor) for the customer to tell them to install a crate engine, and thats where things go to hell. I agree with Dave, an engine is an engine for the most part (except rotaries). The only things that can really get messed up during the R&R is forgetting a vacuum line or a ground wire somewhere. Few sensor/switch connectors are the exact same.

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: engine building

Funny, you have been here longer than me, I think you would have read all of the horror stories by now.

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: engine building

Few dealers will actually rebuild an engine, its more cost-effective (less labor) for the customer to tell them to install a crate engine, and thats where things go to hell. I agree with Dave, an engine is an engine for the most part (except rotaries). The only things that can really get messed up during the R&R is forgetting a vacuum line or a ground wire somewhere. Few sensor/switch connectors are the exact same.

I totally agree with the MOTOR part. It's the other mess.

Forgetting or screwing up a vacuum line or connector etc., can cause a long and drawn out head ache.

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: engine building

All I know is most of the problems I have personally seen on SyTy's shoddy prior mechanic work. In an ideal world, someone such as DaveP who has pride in there work is installing the engine The reality is that I have many of them are in a rush and don't take the time to look to see if they missed something or made a mistake.

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: engine building

All I know is most of the problems I have personally seen on SyTy's shoddy prior mechanic work. In an ideal world, someone such as DaveP who has pride in there work is installing the engine The reality is that I have many of them are in a rush and don't take the time to look to see if they missed something or made a mistake.

Yeah and do you think the average dick gives a damn? He wants your ride out of his shop to make room for the next guy. There are few people in this world I wold let R&R my stuff, and none of them own or work in a shop:2cents:

It's like the guy that told me I needed to relocate my turbo because the cross over pipe on the exhaust was taking away from flow. This was a VERY reputable guy. I knew right then and there to not even bother with letting shops take my truck. Now SYTY shops would be different but I am sure my point is seen.

 

[turboj91]

Re: engine building

I am with Dave on this one and more importantly I am with the OP's DAD. Dude, your dad knows you better than anyone on this board. You will not have true appreciation for your dad and his knowledge until later in life (it's the same with all of us). I hope you are able to get to that point as I know many who have not (my time with my dad was too short). I am not going to get opinionated about your knowledge and skills but please take your dad's advise. Engine work (machine & assembly) is the same. As long as the guy does a proper job with the right tolerances and clearances the machine work will be fine and you can stick your nose into the parts deal to make sure he uses the right parts. Let him buy the parts even if it is a few bucks more. If you supply one thing and something fails, he can easily point the finger at you and say it was your part (even if it is not the case he can still make the claim and it gets ugly from there). Every engine builder I know will not provide a guarantee unless they provide the new parts and assemble the engine. If he were to provide a guarantee and he pulls the engine, he will make sure it goes back in proper as it is his butt if something goes wrong. Now if the tune if off and something happens, that is where a guarantee gets tricky for both you and the builder/installer. If the guy knows the reputation of these trucks, he'd be smart to avoid a guarantee. Maybe a warranty on his parts and labor if his workmanship is found to be faulty. A guarantee is very different. I investigate and testify in court (recognized by the State as an expert in my field) for this type of stuff. Trust me, it ain't easy for the builder. Have your DAD at your side when you talk, negotiate and authorize anything and everything in this deal. You will be better off. Your dad has many years of experiece on you and has been learning for prob. more years than you have been alive. Trust him and do what he says. He will NOT steer you wrong. If something does in fact go wrong, not only will he be able to help you verbally, but he may even stick his hand in his pocket (parents do that if something fails that they suggested and their kid went with all of their advise and there was NO fault of your own). Lastly, either you are going to have to learn how to tune or your going to have to find someone that can do it for you. There is no way around that. The truck will have to be tuned.

 

[BoostedSUV]

Re: engine building

Myself personally I do every bit of work I can possibly do myself before I will rely on others. I am also very confident in my abilities and I know when I'm in over my head... With that said, that applies to me. I have to agree with Dave and Jim on this one... His knowledge base is not up to par for an engine removal and install. No offense meant but I've read most of your threads and I think you're in over your head and its best to leave this one to the "experts". I'm not looking forward to 17 new threads entitled "where does this go" :lol:

No offense but if you had to ask how to change an FPR, had to outsource to get leaf springs installed, and needed 3 threads to figure out how to use a leak down or compression tester you're in over your head... Trust me, it took us 6 months to convince you that your motor was shot. It could have long been fixed by now if you listened to us. Again, I'm not trying to bruise your ego, I'm trying to save you future headaches

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: engine building

Sorry it appears that I took the "average dick" comment personally; I know you didn't mean it that way. But not every professional mechanic is a dick. Especially outside the Dealerships. That's part of the process of finding the right guy. In this case, the OP should listen to his dad.

Now Dave, after all we've been through here, why on earth would I lump you in as an average dick? You would be one of the people I'd let wrench on my truck:lol:

I understand your point in all I really do. I guess I see things from my experience. When I bought my Ty I knew :lol:some things about cars. I had built some V8's, done many a brakes, swapped trannies, blah blah blah. :lol:I will say that the engine in my Ty was less than desireable to remove at the time, I had never worked anything turboed let alone fuel injected. But I did get it out. I built the motor and it went smoothly. Once it was back in, I got it all back together in a fair amount of time. One thing that really set me back was that in my old Vette, I used MSD wires, which were phenomenal in that car. What I didn't realize was that the SYTY uses a straight boot on 1 and 6 for a very good reason. I thought since it was MSD who the hell needs a straight boot. Well, needless to say I was stuck for almost 4 months trying to figure out why the truck would rock and roll when cold and get rough as hell when warm.

Now maybe a good mechanic wouldn't have screwed this up in the first place but it's the kind of thing I am talking about that there are just somethings that aren't the same with a V8. I have no idea what the OP's extent of knowledge is but if I wwere him, I would have my hands as deep in to the process as possible. He should learn this stuff anyway.:2cents:

 

[syty9933]

Re: engine building

I am just trying to find the best way to do this build process right , I am not attempting to rebuild this motor myself because i dont have much experience with building the internals of an engine and that it should be left to a professional that has done it for years . I agree that if he is good at building any type of motor than building my engine is the same process with just different specs and that he will probally do a great job if i supply him the right parts . I dont have experience that amounts even close to most people on this forum, but I have been working on sytys since about 9 years old starting with aturbo swap on my brothers typhoon. I have asked some ignorant questions on here before and am sorry for wasting anyones time,but i am pretty comforatble with the process of rebuilding the syclone engine bay besides removing the actual block or internal components. I am deffiantly not saying that I have more experience and knowledge than any engine builder, and that the only reason i would think about taking it apart and putting it back together( block aside) rather than him is because ive spent all my time on one particular vehicle for years that he has probally never worked on once, I would deffiantly feel comfortable building it back together if the bare block was dropped and mounted in more than somone that has never worked on a syclone before, but anything more complex than that is probally out of my knowledge and experience level right now, and that i should probally learn first hand with an experienced sytyer first before ever attempting it myself. I have no idea if this guy has ever built a fuel injected car before or a turbo car. What do you guys think of the idea of me removing everything down to the block , then having it towed to the builder and let him take it out build it and put it back in and then i could finish it. Then it would seem all i would need after i finished that is a good tuner to help. That way i could let the builder do what i know he is good at and what is out of my knowledge and experience level, and what I know I could do better just by having syclone specific knowledge and experience? To me that saves time money, the builder a large headache, and peace of mind that the syclone portion of it is at least down by someone that knows the truck, and the engine building and block removing done by a professional. My build is :

Stock Block
4 bolt mains
Srp .20 bore pistons
Eagle rods
60lb inj
either vortechs or l35s
415 comp cam
pte61
atr external wg
arp studs
larger stall convertor
ebay front mount a/a

My dad is going to pay for it , and i work as a host at applebees and will pay him off a little each month , which may take a while but I love this truck that I'll work hard just to get it running how it should


BTW i want to thanks all of you guys on here if i havent before , you are some of my heros because you have helped me out immensly over the last couple years on the forum, and you take the time to put up with a kid that is still learning and needs help sometimes. I dont know what i wouldve done without everyones help

 

[turboj91]

Re: engine building

Way to roll with the punches kido. Glad to see you don't get all pissed off and flip us all off. We are only trying to help. Me and Dave are double your age and then some. Been there and done that and just trying to help a youngster out and we tell it like we see it.

Since you have confidense that you can remove and install the engine, talk that over with the engine builder. Ask about a warranty or guarantee and see what he demands. Maybe if you drop off a complete engine and he does his thing and assembles it complete, you can install it and bolt everything up. When it comes time to start it, it would be good to have him there to listen and watch. He will look for oil leaks, watch the oil pressure and temp, listen for knocks ect... Talk to him and see what he will allow and what he will do. Very important - HAVE YOUR DAD THERE WITH YOU - when you talk with the builder. Make sure all 3 of you are on the same page. If it comes to legalities, you and dad together have a better case than you alone. I bet you cash money that if you tell your dad that you want his help on this deal that he will jump at the opportunity and be proud to do it.

 

[syty9933]

Re: engine building

Way to roll with the punches kido. Glad to see you don't get all pissed off and flip us all off. We are only trying to help. Me and Dave are double your age and then some. Been there and done that and just trying to help a youngster out and we tell it like we see it.

Since you have confidense that you can remove and install the engine, talk that over with the engine builder. Ask about a warranty or guarantee and see what he demands. Maybe if you drop off a complete engine and he does his thing and assembles it complete, you can install it and bolt everything up. When it comes time to start it, it would be good to have him there to listen and watch. He will look for oil leaks, watch the oil pressure and temp, listen for knocks ect... Talk to him and see what he will allow and what he will do. Very important - HAVE YOUR DAD THERE WITH YOU - when you talk with the builder. Make sure all 3 of you are on the same page. If it comes to legalities, you and dad together have a better case than you alone. I bet you cash money that if you tell your dad that you want his help on this deal that he will jump at the opportunity and be proud to do it.

thanks man, those are some good ideas.