Engine question!!

Neelsonwheels

Donating Member
As some of you know I am putting together a stock block partial fill engine.
The crank and block have been pressure tested and magnafluxed. Both came back great.
The crank is perfect but the block measure out to .017 of wear. The builder suggest taking it out to .040. Says its standard practice. First of all is .040 okay for a serious build? What else can I do if it cleans at say .035?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
 

mattw

Active member
Re: Engine question!!

Builders like to punch stuff out in large increments like that because it almost guarantees they will only need to do it once. If he punched it 10 over and that didn't do it he would then have to take 20 over, etc, etc.

I'm also having a block build now(2 more cylinders though). My builder(Renz's father-in-law) punched it out 30 over. I explained to him that I intend to run it hard and that I don't want to weaken it in any way. He ensured me that 30 over will not weaken it. I hope he is right. He also talked me into a stroker rotating assembly and he says that extra stroke won't weaken things either. Guess we'll see....
 

Aeroking

e.i.
Re: Engine question!!

Your options for pistons change with your bore size. 4.030 ( 30 over ) is the most common for our style piston. 40 over is pretty common also. Beyond that your choices of piston diminishes. .035 isn't even a common piston bore. Unless you go with a full custom order piston. Then you talk a lot of money for something that isn't really necessary. Search summit/jegs for piston bores and you'll see the most common bore sizes. You want the smallest bore possible.
 

Neelsonwheels

Donating Member
Re: Engine question!!

I plan on using custom pistons if it doesn't clean up at .030. I need to get my list together for an order from Mr. Hood.
 

Davemc1963

93 Ty Owner
Re: Engine question!!

Although I've been around cars for quite a few years and stripped and built a few engines myself. On a V like ours, the bores tend to wear most on the thrust side of the block, thus without mounting the block in a boring machine or other machine tool or fixture, it isn't easy to determine how the block has worn and what 0.017" of bore wear actually means. That is just a measurement, but dosen't tell you how it relates to the concentricity of the original bore.

It could be that the ovality of the bore is only 0.010", with the other 0.007" of wear on the non thrust side (doubtful), this might just clean up with a 0.030" overbore. That said, you need a couple or three thou for the final finish honing, so it could be close.
Like has been mentioned, setting up the block and machining it costs the $$ to the machine shop and they will want the pistons to measure before they machine the bores to fit them. If the shop you are using are amicable, they should be able to actually clock up (measure up) and determine what the 17 thou means, or, at your request see if they will clean up at +30 thou over.

At the end of the day, time to them is money - how much do you want to spend? Like has been said, do you want to pay twice? They may also not want that hassle, unless they share your enthusiasm. They know that a +0.040" overbore will be easy to achieve.
Good advice already given on piston options for the popular + 30/40 option.

My philosophy for strength is to remove the least amount of material as possible, to deck the head less and use a thinner gasket to achieve optimum piston to head clearance.
If thin cylinder walls really are a problem on these engines at the level you are going to be at, would you be better off looking for another less worn block to start with? Is your block a bad one? Certainly for the sbc, there are blocks that have higher nickel content in them than others???

On a different but still block related theme, but making an assumption that you will be square decking the block. I will first be honest and say that I have never stripped a turbo six, sbc's yes and the general concensus indicating that a quench of about 0.040 or so being good. Opinions on this (from what I have read only) with regard to turbo engines seems to contradict this n/a convention as a requirement to improve octane tolerence. I haven't studied this, it's an 'observation', maybe someone else will chip in, but I would opine that what holds up in a n/a motor should have a basis for consideration in a forced inducted one also.

Where I'm trying to get to here is piston selection with regard to pin to crown height. A lot of aftermarket pistons have a smaller pin to crown dimension, necessitating milling the deck more to achieve optimum quench, piston selection will affect how much you need to mill the block to achieve your desired piston to deck dimension whilst factoring in the thickness of the head gaskets you will be using. (Reducing strength and rigidity)
Obviously rod length options with these is pretty limited (none) and offset grinding the crank journals and using undersize big end bearings isnt really an option to play with. But if strength (of your stock block) is your ultimate objective and if quench on these things has any importance (my opinion above) a thicker deck and custom piston (smaller diameter for thickest wall thickness) would have some benefits. Like everything in life compromises have to be made and money is a factor to most of us on here. I hope at least the first part of my post will help some.

The rest I suppose is purely a personal subjective opinion.
 

Neelsonwheels

Donating Member
Re: Engine question!!

Thanks so much for the input. I am far from rich,but I do not skimp on quality. I will pay whatever the price is for what I need to end up with the best possible result. I will not skimp.
Period. I am not trying to do anything on the cheap. At my age piece of mind is priceless.
I am trying to build the best stock block short fill I can with in reason. I am not shooting for
any record breaking power. I want a stout engine that I can push from time to time.
 

Neelsonwheels

Donating Member
Re: Engine question!!

yes. He is local. He rebuilt my current motor. I might look around for a builder that has a little more modern tooling and experience with what I am trying to do. I want to cryo treat the engine and crank. We will see.
 

Don W.

Stab it and steer it
Re: Engine question!!

Just to add a comment. I'm running two different thickness head gaskets because the previous, supposedly reputable, shop not only got the deck heights unequal but even was very slightly off on the decks being parallel to the crank center-line. Current shop found it and ordered the different gaskets from Cometic. IOW it's easy to get screwed. The out-of-parallel was very small so I didn't fool with the extra machining to fix both. Mostly a $$$ issue.

FWIW I'm running .030 over SRP pistons. Those pistons have been to hell and back (3 tear-downs) and have held up perfectly.

As an aside since you're putting together a nice motor, something that's rarely talked about but very important, please degree the cam. Just my :2cents:
 

Neelsonwheels

Donating Member
Re: Engine question!!

Hey Don,
I do plan on having that done. The machinist that I have been using is very good,but i feel that his equipment is a little dated. That is the only reason I am considering a different shop.
 

Neelsonwheels

Donating Member
Re: Engine question!!

Well I bought the engine complete for $100.00. The crank is mint and the block is
Good. Sleeving is pricey. I would be better off looking for another block at that point I think.
It's a thaught though.
 

Davemc1963

93 Ty Owner
Re: Engine question!!

Whilst modern machinery looks impressive, the end product is what is important. Older machine tools that are in good order, with a skilled operator, can still produce world class results and one would argue, results that are far superior to the most up to date megabuck machinery operated by someone who is less skilled and experienced (or interested).
Also, new modern machinery obviously has to pay for itself too by throughput.
Reputations and recommendations whilst again being subjective are important factors when choosing a machine shop. This to me and reading your posts for you too, is the most difficult decision to make. It makes the parts selection seem easy.

All I'm saying is dont let workshop bling, whilst visually impressive, cloud the fact that skills, quality, reputation and integrity are also important. There are many 'salesmen' that can talk a good job, all work maintains their cashflow and keeps them in business. Finding a shop who can actually 'do the business' is whats the most important. I suppose dialogue is key and knowing exactly what you want done beforehand and then having agreement with the shop confirm and agree this.

You mentioned the shop you have previously used. Did they do what you wanted and agreed? If so and there were no issues with quality/end product, that ticks at least one box for me. Shops have different capabilites, but will only do whats agreed and to a price based on their time etc;
I suppose dialogue with them is key, but only once you know what you want doing.
If you dont get that warm fuzzy feeling, then go somewhere else.
 

Neelsonwheels

Donating Member
Re: Engine question!!

I agree with everything said in the previous post. The machinists I used for the current engine in my truck has been very easy to work with and very open to my wishes on this project.
I do have a very good relationship with him and he has an open shop policy.
I think he will be doing the machining on this build. I will just have to do my homework on the coatings and cryogenic treatment part.
Thanks
 

Jimmy

Banned
Re: Engine question!!

I agree with everything said in the previous post. The machinists I used for the current engine in my truck has been very easy to work with and very open to my wishes on this project.
I do have a very good relationship with him and he has an open shop policy.
I think he will be doing the machining on this build. I will just have to do my homework on the coatings and cryogenic treatment part.
Thanks

I'd skip the cryo but do thermal barrier coating on everything.

IMO a short filled stock block is bullet proof as long as you stay under 25 PSI and don't knock it.

The main problem with our engines is heat.Heat leads to knock.The cooler you can keep everything,the better you will run.I'd coat the pistons,manifolds,DP and run ice water through the IC system
 
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