Head gasket seal!?
- Thread starter Falco
- Start date
Falco
Donating Member
Just to answer my own question:
http://www.federal-mogul.com/felpro/gasket_improper_chem.html
Peace,
http://www.federal-mogul.com/felpro/gasket_improper_chem.html
Peace,
Lynn D. Brown
New member
Head Gasket sealing
Head Gasket sealing
Falco,
Hey - some good info ! Now we need to get everyone else to answer their own questions !
Head Gasket sealing
Falco,
Hey - some good info ! Now we need to get everyone else to answer their own questions !
ghettosled
SYTY SUPERSTORE
you may want to consider the stock gaskets.. they are better and will not have a tendancy to blow out under boost.
Tooky
Serious about performance
I don't want to "steal" anyone's topic but I have wondered, why does it seem the SyTys don't have any problems blowing head gaskets, like other high-performance turbo motors seem to have when they are being pushed to the max? Our trucks just seem to blow the whole motor instead ;-) (Some consolation!!!)
Falco
Donating Member
Thanks for the replies. I'll go with the FelPro now, I've already put back the heads, don't want to go back and wait for stock gaskets again. Hopefully they will do, I don't plan to run on high boost, 17 psi max with the combo I'm building right now.
As for head gasket failures, I guess that it's clamped down quite well and we don't use very high boost all the time. I've heard that the turbo Buicks are blowing out head gaskets much more often, but they tend to run 25+ psi and if I'm righ they have fewer bolts holding down the heads too.
Just my $0.02.
Later,
As for head gasket failures, I guess that it's clamped down quite well and we don't use very high boost all the time. I've heard that the turbo Buicks are blowing out head gaskets much more often, but they tend to run 25+ psi and if I'm righ they have fewer bolts holding down the heads too.
Just my $0.02.
Later,
Lynn D. Brown
New member
Head Gaskets
Head Gaskets
Falco,
I have blown the head gaskets in my GN and wish I had in my Ty.
Instead I bent a rod(s). So, sometimes I wonder if we want the head gasket to seal so perfectly.
Perhaps it should act as a "relief valve" and be the 1st thing to go, at least on a street engine. I now have "Lockwire O" ringed faskets on my GN, and am wondering if I should have gone that far, particularly w stock
cast rods.
I think the main difference in the two heads, GN vs SyTy is 8 bolts vs
what - 12 ? One helluva diff !
Head Gaskets
Falco,
I have blown the head gaskets in my GN and wish I had in my Ty.
Instead I bent a rod(s). So, sometimes I wonder if we want the head gasket to seal so perfectly.
Perhaps it should act as a "relief valve" and be the 1st thing to go, at least on a street engine. I now have "Lockwire O" ringed faskets on my GN, and am wondering if I should have gone that far, particularly w stock
cast rods.
I think the main difference in the two heads, GN vs SyTy is 8 bolts vs
what - 12 ? One helluva diff !
Tydriver
TurboLS6 Powa'
TookyCat said:
Simple mathmatics Took.. 4 bolts around the combustion chamber on a BUICK 3.8L.. SyTy's have 5 around the combustion chamber (in the shape of a pentagon).. Over all the SYTY would be the better choice for keeping it together (assuming identical lower ends, forged this and forged that).. And the only time you'd worry about blowing a headgasket is if its running LEAN (and hot) or pinging (worse than lean
).. Otherwise if its in tune the SYTY setup should hold better...Lynn D. Brown
New member
Head sealing & Bottom End
Head sealing & Bottom End
Yes, the Syty Heads do appear to have good sealing, but to go very far
in enhancing performance, it does appear that the bottom end needs to be upgraded. The supposedly "forged" rods seem to be breaking all over
the place. Not sure what GM purchased there, but they certainly appear to be "low bid" all the way, and inadequate. I hear that these rods are more narrow than the SBC rods, which may partially explain their weakness. Perhaps they had to do this to keep it from hitting inside the
V-6 block. It woulda been better if they had not narrowed the rods and instead clearanced the block - one more shortcut. Ah - the dilemma of trying to make a profit on mass-produced engines !
The crank may not be all that great either, since they had to offset the adjacent journals on an SBC Chevy V-8 crank to keep it in the Evenfire mode on a V-6, and that weakens it considerably. They tried to compensate to some degree by increasing the rod journal OD from 2.1" to 2.25". so our crank is a real oddball. Therefore to get a forged version, U have to have it custom made, and pay ~ $2300-3000. and wait 4-6 months. I didn't have that time, so I went w a new, stock GM crank in a 4-bolt Bowtie block. Hopefully that will allow it to survive.
Ranting over.
Head sealing & Bottom End
Yes, the Syty Heads do appear to have good sealing, but to go very far
in enhancing performance, it does appear that the bottom end needs to be upgraded. The supposedly "forged" rods seem to be breaking all over
the place. Not sure what GM purchased there, but they certainly appear to be "low bid" all the way, and inadequate. I hear that these rods are more narrow than the SBC rods, which may partially explain their weakness. Perhaps they had to do this to keep it from hitting inside the
V-6 block. It woulda been better if they had not narrowed the rods and instead clearanced the block - one more shortcut. Ah - the dilemma of trying to make a profit on mass-produced engines !
The crank may not be all that great either, since they had to offset the adjacent journals on an SBC Chevy V-8 crank to keep it in the Evenfire mode on a V-6, and that weakens it considerably. They tried to compensate to some degree by increasing the rod journal OD from 2.1" to 2.25". so our crank is a real oddball. Therefore to get a forged version, U have to have it custom made, and pay ~ $2300-3000. and wait 4-6 months. I didn't have that time, so I went w a new, stock GM crank in a 4-bolt Bowtie block. Hopefully that will allow it to survive.
Ranting over.
Tooky
Serious about performance
Re: Head sealing & Bottom End
Re: Head sealing & Bottom End
Re: Head sealing & Bottom End
Who is supposing our stock rods are forged? (If that is what you are implying). I have not heard anyone make the claim that our motors came with forged rods, stock.Lynn D. Brown said:
I don't know much about the crank, but I can't recall hearing of anyone snapping their crankshaft recently. Therefore I am not concerned about it as a likely point of failure. I am interested in hearing more about how weak it is; can you point me to where I can read about some SyTy crankshaft failures? Thank you.
FWIW, the Buick crank is of the same 'even fire' design as the 4.3, and guys have gone to oddfires in the Buick world as well. Just that there is a bigger market for Buick even fire cranks, so they are cheaper (somewhat). The ASA et al went to oddfire 4.3 cranks a while ago, so no one uses even fires for 'em, so you can't find a steel even fire to save your life (for the most part). As far as the crank failures, I just don't hear about them. If I have, its questionable whether there were other issues - aka SERIOUS detonation, crank flex/walk, something else let go first, whatever.
The stock syty rods are horrible, sure ain't forged. Eagle rods are a cheap replacement, and you can find others out there at comparable prices to Buicks, and the rest...
'bout a zillion pistons to use, same setup as SBC's there. Same with bearings, main caps, timing chains, water pumps, accessories.
Put 4 bolt splayed mains in the bottom of your syty, a well prepped stock 4.3 crank (tons of 'em out there), a well prepped stock block, and you should be good for 650+ hp. Buicks with steel caps and/or girdles are questionable at the same levels. I think it's just a matter of the syty crowd finally starting to push the barriers so we are just learning the syty motor *IS* a decent motor for a buildup, you just have to address all of its weakpoints. Once you make a stout bottom end, it's nice. No stupid oiling problems, no cams wiping left and right, no rear main oil seal leaks, no head gaskets popping as frequently as on a Buick, tons of parts out there still, good selection of cams, great iron heads available in junk yards.
Wanna compare the "SLOW" times of syty's to Buicks... let's put the 4.3 motors in the 2wd equivalent of the syty. Dean Ollar - 10 sec 1/4 on a stock motor, 2wd Typhoon. Mild buildups do 9s in 2wd pickups.
Not picking on you Lynn, I just think that the Syty motor gets a bad rep cuz the factory screwed up so much stuff from the factory. When I hear Buick guys who have gone through several motor rebuilds to go 10s ripping on a syty motor, I have to laugh since they just don't know what the 4.3 can do on a budget buildup.
I did 124mph on pump gas & alky on 20psi, 126mph on a bit more boost & octane. Peter Humblias did 126mph on similar build, more boost & bigger turbo. Several McCoy motor trucks have done mid/high 10s, low 11s. Tony from ya-hey-dere Canada did 128mph on a truck that looks nearly stock, unported iron Vortec heads. Lots of guys turning out *great* numbers from engines with common buildups that are relatively cheap - stock block, crank, budget internals, Vortec heads, and basic supporting bolt ons.
damnit, i'm just going off on a rant as an excuse from doing work, time to stop :x
The stock syty rods are horrible, sure ain't forged. Eagle rods are a cheap replacement, and you can find others out there at comparable prices to Buicks, and the rest...
'bout a zillion pistons to use, same setup as SBC's there. Same with bearings, main caps, timing chains, water pumps, accessories.
Put 4 bolt splayed mains in the bottom of your syty, a well prepped stock 4.3 crank (tons of 'em out there), a well prepped stock block, and you should be good for 650+ hp. Buicks with steel caps and/or girdles are questionable at the same levels. I think it's just a matter of the syty crowd finally starting to push the barriers so we are just learning the syty motor *IS* a decent motor for a buildup, you just have to address all of its weakpoints. Once you make a stout bottom end, it's nice. No stupid oiling problems, no cams wiping left and right, no rear main oil seal leaks, no head gaskets popping as frequently as on a Buick, tons of parts out there still, good selection of cams, great iron heads available in junk yards.
Wanna compare the "SLOW" times of syty's to Buicks... let's put the 4.3 motors in the 2wd equivalent of the syty. Dean Ollar - 10 sec 1/4 on a stock motor, 2wd Typhoon. Mild buildups do 9s in 2wd pickups.
Not picking on you Lynn, I just think that the Syty motor gets a bad rep cuz the factory screwed up so much stuff from the factory. When I hear Buick guys who have gone through several motor rebuilds to go 10s ripping on a syty motor, I have to laugh since they just don't know what the 4.3 can do on a budget buildup.
I did 124mph on pump gas & alky on 20psi, 126mph on a bit more boost & octane. Peter Humblias did 126mph on similar build, more boost & bigger turbo. Several McCoy motor trucks have done mid/high 10s, low 11s. Tony from ya-hey-dere Canada did 128mph on a truck that looks nearly stock, unported iron Vortec heads. Lots of guys turning out *great* numbers from engines with common buildups that are relatively cheap - stock block, crank, budget internals, Vortec heads, and basic supporting bolt ons.
damnit, i'm just going off on a rant as an excuse from doing work, time to stop :x
Lynn D. Brown
New member
SyTy Bottom End
SyTy Bottom End
Brian,
I'm sure I read in the shop manual or somewhere reliable that the SyTy rods are forged, altho' our experiences make that hard to believe. And that seems to be the main weak point, probably made worse by the good sealing heads.
Looking at the shop manual the GN rolled fillet crank has similar split
common journals, but the journals R a little bigger - 2-1/2" vs 2-1/4". Supposedly the rolled fillet is turbo specific, so I guess that must help.
But all in all our crank isn't too bad.
And U R right that there R a number of advantages to the SyTy setup, one being that it is a Chevy, which gives U access to alot more parts. And the oiling system should be far superior, roller cam is better, and the much superior 1-piece RM seal. I think I'm having to have special machining done on my Bowtie to keep the 1-piecer. But I will definitely spend some $$ to avoid the pathetic 2-piece RM seal that is stock on the Bowtie block.
SyTy Bottom End
Brian,
I'm sure I read in the shop manual or somewhere reliable that the SyTy rods are forged, altho' our experiences make that hard to believe. And that seems to be the main weak point, probably made worse by the good sealing heads.
Looking at the shop manual the GN rolled fillet crank has similar split
common journals, but the journals R a little bigger - 2-1/2" vs 2-1/4". Supposedly the rolled fillet is turbo specific, so I guess that must help.
But all in all our crank isn't too bad.
And U R right that there R a number of advantages to the SyTy setup, one being that it is a Chevy, which gives U access to alot more parts. And the oiling system should be far superior, roller cam is better, and the much superior 1-piece RM seal. I think I'm having to have special machining done on my Bowtie to keep the 1-piecer. But I will definitely spend some $$ to avoid the pathetic 2-piece RM seal that is stock on the Bowtie block.
rockvillespeed
Member
our oem rods are forged, as are all small chevy rods since 1955.
that doesnt nec. mean shit, but it's a fact.
if i recall right, only pontiacs came from the factory (i am talking v8 real motors here) with cast rods, and they're famous pieces of shit - they eggshape under load, spinning the bearing (at best).
if one cannot afford eagle or equiv. rods, at least shotpeen and beam grind your stockers, and have them resized with arp waveloc bolts.
that doesnt nec. mean shit, but it's a fact.
if i recall right, only pontiacs came from the factory (i am talking v8 real motors here) with cast rods, and they're famous pieces of shit - they eggshape under load, spinning the bearing (at best).
if one cannot afford eagle or equiv. rods, at least shotpeen and beam grind your stockers, and have them resized with arp waveloc bolts.