my tranny shop just called

[ed hess]

hughes seems to have the most in it from what i can figure out in their price list.

just for grins maybe george can throw some numbers in here on just how much it cost dvt to build my trans. sure they lost their ass.

book time for in and out is 14 hours.
they did it 3 times.

replaced case part cost

valve body cost

pump cost

td cost

they also replaced the chain in the transfer case
so both material and labor for that.

i only paid them a total of 600.

I am sure they spent way more than they collected.

ed

 

[Blake]

Ed.
Print out that page Jesse put together for me.
Combine that with the ATSG and I have some other stuff I will put on a CD Rom and send you. How to do air checks, how to install teflon seals on the input shaft and stator, stuff like that.
The Haynes manual has some neat little tricks.
What I tried to do on the Huryde site is combine everything so you didn't have to buy 4 books but it still isn't done. I have a stack of stuff at home almost 18" high of printouts, mailings, books, inserts and photos. Looks like my wife's college materials(rediculous mass of information).
In the Helms manual there are really nice layouts of fluid flow. That way you'll understand what valves are doing what when. Makes it nice when you want to know what all is engaged when the overrun clutches are being used.
I'll look up some prices on what they did but I'll tell you this.
My local shop charged $1352 for a oncethrough, cleanout, and TC. Nothing new put in but the TC.
Yours had 3 rebuids, new parts put in, new case and valvebody. If it makes you feel any better, you are way ahead if this thing works.
A Hughes unit won't be anything like yours. No one has anything like yours readily available. Hopefully something here makes you feel a LITTLE better about it.

 

[Mad Mike]

I had a chance to test drive Ed's truck last night. A few runs around the block and a few WOT runs. No boosted launches. As I was trying to explain to Ed last night. Having had a few trans rebuilt in several different vehicles including sy/ty's, after the rebuild the "shift characteristics" always seemed to change alittle. Maybe crisper firmer shifts, or just the feel of the trans as it shifted or downshifted etc. Ed's trans on the other hand despite a couple different converters and now 2 rebuilds (that I have driven) the trans "feels" exactly the same. That is with every change made to his trans it has felt the same. It's the way it shifts from rear to gear. Oh sure his shifts are somewhat firmer during normal driving but his WOT shifts feel the same to me. It's hard to explain but there's almost a transition from one gear to another rather a definite gear change. Now, I did have it in OD rather than D but that's how I run my truck so I think it's a fair comparison. At this point Ed has basically a completely different transmssion yet it "feels" the same. I have owned three sy/ty's and driven a few others and none felt quite like Ed's. Now, I never drove Ed's truck before the new engine. Maybe it has something to do with that I'm not sure. However, Ed's new converter is 100% better than before, not loose at all, no vibration. I have BH's 9/11 in my syclone and while I love it, it is little loose compared to his. None the less his truck pulls like a raped ape and looks great to boot.

 

[ed hess]

Now that i have had more time to drive the truck normal, but without any WOT yet, I can give some initial 1st impressions.

It is as firm as it was after a fresh rebuild 2 years ago with a b&M shift kit that was added at that time.

Does it feel "THE SAME AS BEFORE" to me?
NO, it does feel as firm or a bit firmer than the last rebuild.
In reading this you guys have to understand one thing if you are trying to compare my trans to your own existing or a planned future build:

My trans allways had a great feel to it. IMHO

So with that said I still need to get some wot runs on it, but this will be done at the track.

However the real reason to do a build with these parts is not only for shift feel, but DURABILITY.

The durability test....well thats allways ongoing till it breaks.

Am i happy? As the dust starts to settle and i separate the anxiety and emotions from it all , yes i have to say at this point i am.

ed

 

[Blake]

Most people look for something to change during a rebuild.
There are some things people need to understand. A 5 pinion planet does nothing for "feel". TD shaft, sun shell, reaction carrier shaft won't do anything for "feel". They're not meant to. They are strictly there to handle the stresses of load. New sprag. Nothing for feel. Strictly for integrity.
Kinda like new pistons. They take more stress than the old but in themselves don't make you go faster.
Here's another thing on opening a feed orifice for the 2nd, 3rd or 4th. It will make a shift quicker but not harder. Not sooner. Just quicker. It speeds the RATE that the fluid moves the valves. For example, going from 3rd to 4th. Clutches disengage for the 3-4. Gear change is made in the trans("how stuff works" has a good graphical representation of this gear change)as the clutches reengage. This all must happen quickly but not so quick that the complete gear change can't be made. If timing is off, you will bind between gears. So it still takes the same amount of time for a gear change but this opening of the orifice will make the reengagement of clutches quicker. It's not gonna be harder or firmer, just quicker.
You don't want a big lag, major drop of rpm, and then big "slam" shift. That's not good for time slips and not good for the internals of the transmission. Inertia must stay intact to help prevent parts breakage.
I don't know what's in Ed's transmission as far as clutches. We won't ever know unless Walt tells different.
Ed, I think they vaulted a post I made when running a TV cable check. It has the window of MPH for the 1-2 shift and maybe the 2-3. Check that before you say part throttle shifts are late. As long as it remains in the "window" your ok. Hopefully they got your clutch clearances correct. There were instructions in there for that as well. Transgo likes tight clearances for quick shifts. Raybestos likes stock clearances to prevent drag. So in comes the tradeoff. You want quicker shifts or more durability?
See what I mean? The biggest things that changes the feel of transmission will be the torque converter and 1-2 servo/2-4 band and tv boost valve.
The band they put in there won't grab as well as the band that you bought originally. It's not gonna grab as good as 2 5/8" band either. It's not the end of the world. It works so who cares? There's gonna be some slip. It's just a matter of how well that BW band can handle the stress of the slip.
You really can't compare this with the old transmission unfortunately.
With the way things sound, none of your original trans is there anymore anyway. All the internals were new and they broke your case and valvebody so they are new as well. Whole new animal. Try to be happy they were still able to piecemeal it together after what they did and try to enjoy it a little.

 

[ed hess]

george

I just read that article and the min throttle (minimum throttle defined as just taking it easy behind a slowpoke pulling way from a light) is about 16mph for the 1-2 shift. I will test the downshift for 2-1 as you said in your post in the vault.

One thing mike and i were doing last night.

Because of my not being sure about shift points:
I Had mike do about 6-7 unboosted launches in front of my shop and recorded them on DM so find what the rpm and mph for the WOT 1-2 shift was.

With the tv cable set for a proper min throttle shift we get a higher rpm and mph wot 1-2 shift. If we set the tv cable for a lower wot 1-2 shift the min throttle mph would go up.

The old trans had a wot 1-2 shift at 30 mph and i think something around 4900-5100. Whereas now we are around 5200-5400 and 35 mph.

At one point we tested at 5700 for the 1-2 and 5900 for the 2-3.
Even though the motor was balanced i wont rev it this high as i dont want to take the chance.

so right now its about 14-16 mph min throttle 1-2 shift and wot 1-2 shift at 35 mph with 5200-5400 rpm.

Does this sound about right?

i dont know what the effect will be for et with the slightly higher shift point?

ed

 

[100in6]

break this puppy in and take it to the track and let see how it does!

time slips will tell the story. sounds like you may have gotten a real bargain if it works well

 

[ed hess]

i plan to go tuesday nite, unless i get out sooner.

My atsg manual just arrived.
I think george is correct about if you can build a motor you can kick a trannys ass. Why?

this book isnt much thicker than a thick magazine!

120 pages

No doubt there is a lot more reference material than this......

ed

btw when i build one i plan to polish the case!

 

[Blake]

Your TV valve determines your transmission pressure response to throttle position. Set it so you have a PROPER part throttle 1-2 shift as well as proper downshift. WOT shifting is determined by the governor. If the shop replaced your syty governor with a corvette, it won't be right. If you are sure you have a syty governor, then you are going to have to experiment with the weights on the governor to get WOT shift points corrects.
Don't use TV cable to adjust WOT shiftpoints. That's a no-no. If your 1-2 is correct and you have proper downshifting, your TV cable is fine. Problem is in the governor(wouldn't be noticed by most people, but will be noticed by guys using their trucks to their full extent if you know what I mean.)

Your right on the ATSG. Not rocket science.
By itself it is good, but if you mix the rest of the info from Huryde with the airchecks and other tips I'm sending you along with info from the Haynes and the Helms, you will get a complete understanding. If that's what your going for(some people don't want to know all that crap).

For stock syty your WOT shift points are too high. But if you have a different cam and everything, it is probably just fine. Don't worry about it unless you notice that your truck is running too high out of the cam's power band.

George

 

[ed hess]

souns like i have the wrong goverenor then.

B&M sells a weight kit for adjusting this.



I have a scale here if you have some weights you could measure then i can just match to the proper ones.

Anyone esle klnow what the proper weights are?


better yet I found 2 local syty trannies, maybe i just go get one of em and swap governors? I beleive this is done outside the tranny....lemme go read book.

So the only way to adjust tv properly is by the oem method and never any different? unless its just a tweak to the proper part throttle mph?

ed

probably a waste to call those idiots to get my origianl governor.

 

[ed hess]

george looking at this in the manual, couple questions

the manual says to use a sealant. Which sealant?

The manual does not actually say or show how the goverenor cover is attached.

does it press in or screw in?

Is it removed by just slowly prying it out?

The also say to use a c6 servo cover as an installation tool.

I assume this would mean it is pressed in and you use this part from an old ford tranny to keep the force concentrated equally around the perimter of the goverenor cover.

I would then aalso assume one of my extremely large 1 inch drive sockets could be used as well?

I am understanding this correctly and can you clear up these uncertainties for me?

Am i going to have fuild coming out when the cover comes off?

ed

 

[ed hess]

George looks like the GM service manual gives pretty good detail for removal, intall, and sealing.

However hopefully someone reading this will know which weights to use from the B&M kit?

Otherwise its a lot of trial and error, unless the B&M kit will tell you which weights to use.

the kit will arrive here on monday afternnon.

ed

 

[Blake]

Just get one of the syty governors. The part number is in the manual on the Huryde site in the section on the governor.
They want you to use red loctite around the circumference of the cover.
They are a pain to get out. A little fluid will come out. Like a small steady stream. Let the truck sit for a while before you do it so fluid has some time to run down into the pan. They're right on the cover. If you just hammer in the middle of the cover, it will dent it in and bind the governor a bit.

Which manual did you get? sounds like a good one. Was it just the ATSG?

Can you PM on the syty trannies you've found? That would be a really good one to use for the video I want to make.

Thanks, Ed,
George

 

[ed hess]

george,

I called walt the installer at home today and asked him if they had done anything to the governor.

Talking with the installer I found that they had made a change to a spring on the governer. He claimed this spring was not a part of the springs or weights which affect shift points. I don’t beieve there are any springs that don’t affect the shift points on this governer unit!

However he clained this was a spring that held the governeor drive gear tight to the output shaft gear.

He also said they had tried 2 different length tv springs.

Does this sound like they have the governor screwed up and the tv valve so that no matter what you do with the tv cable setting you can never get the normal shift point and wot shift points to be what they should?

ed

 

[Merk]

Wow, good reading here.

And I think this may qualify as one of the longest "legitimate" posts here to date.

 

[Blake]

OK. Where did you find these guys?
Any spring or weight change in the governor will affect the shift points. That is how you adjust the shift points. So your high shift points are courtesy the little transmission shop of horrors. There is no spring that holds it tight to the output shaft. There is an indentation on the end of governor that mates to a little shaft pressed into the case. The governor cover holds the governor onto the end of the shaft. Look in your ATSG. There is an illustration showing the area in the case I'm talking about. It's in the section where the governor is discussed. I have a feeling they've never seen it either. The orientation of the output shaft is determined by the condition of the bushings and it's install depth. There is a snap ring and a little play to keep things lined up without damaging the nylon gear on the governor.
This is why it would 've done no good for anyone to talk to these people. Either they are incompetent or liers. Sorry. I know you don't want to here that.
Them experimenting with TV springs would've been avoided if they put in a new TV cable. They shimmed your old one because the cable was stretched. A new cable would've eliminated the problem.
Bow Tie overdrives has a really good section on LSS and SSS. Long spring syndrome/short spring syndrome. Long spring gives nice hard low throttle shifts and not so hot wot shifts. Short spring syndrome is worse:
Here's a quote from Bow Tie's site:

SSS is potentially a very dangerous condition since the vehicles accelerator pedal will be signaling the vehicle's engine to make increasing amounts of torque before the TV valve even starts to signal the transmissions pressure boost system to raise line pressure to off set this increasing twisting force. Severe SSS will lead to very rapid transmission clutch / friction failure since clutch clamping pressure will be lagging behind engine torque input! Mild SSS afflicts a large percentage of Th-700R4 and Th-2004R transmissions because of the natural "shortening" of the TV spring that occurs during the millions of cycles this spring is put through during it normal lifetime. If the TV spring is not "re-calibrated" during the rebuild and installation process, this "illness" will still be present when its installed back into the vehicle. This condition will lead to a much shorter service life then it gave the first time around. We believe that "mild" SSS is the root cause of almost all friction failures in these transmissions especially high gear friction failure. Food for thought; if a transmission is capable of providing 300,000 miles of normal service but "fails" at 125,000 miles instead, is that acceptable?
The other leading cause of failure is overheating which is also easy to prevent!
SSS also delays the signal to delay the up shift timing, consequently the transmission will "usually" short shift ( commonly called stack shifting) as it sequences up through the gears. Stack shifts are shifts that occur earlier then is appropriate for the specific throttle setting at the time. While this condition can be quite irritating, it normally doesn't hurt anything. Low pressures, on the other hand, are very serious and can easily go unnoticed until it's too late since a little bit of slippage can be very hard to detect. Whether you know about it or not, it will still accelerate friction wear.
Another affect from the condition of SSS is its affect on downshifting. Downshifting will be delayed relative to accelerator pedal position or be non -existent altogether. This is especially noticeable while trying to get a forced or detent downshift which relies on the TV plunger being totally depressed into the TV bushing at W.O.T. If your transmission is late to downshift or doesn't two gear (detent) downshift, I would be very suspicious of an SSS condition.
This condition is very easy to identify using a 0-300 PSI gauge to confirm instant pressure response with even the slightest movement of the TV cable. The installer can easily remedy this condition.
Our advise is never drive a vehicle that has an SSS condition until is fixed

This condition is what it was doing when they first gave it back and I guarantee you this is why they dorked with your governor's shift points.
This is why I put that "confusing" new TV spring in your kit. To prevent this.
Of course it's all moot when they drop your transmission on the floor and break it all to hell:evil:

Sorry for the long post.

 

[ed hess]

george

The LSS And SSS stuff i had been reading before i posted the last time.

So it is a combination of the 2 being messed with thatis most likely the cause.

I just need to hook up a gauge to test the lss vs sss part and then do the governor.