HotRudyRod
New member
Is there such thing as too much intercooling? Is there a point where it starts goin down? Can race gas, alki, ice boxes and a better IC stop makin worthy power for the money spent?
Thanks.
Thanks.
Too Much Intercooling...?
- Thread starter HotRudyRod
- Start date
ed hess
race or get outta the way
Re: Too Much Intercooling...?
the anwer to this question is the faster you want to go from where ever you are now the more it begins to cost.
colder air makes power as the air becomes denser.
as well as you go faster and faster it can become more and more expensive to get even some of those small gains.
the trick is to spend the money where each and eveytime you get the most hp improvement for the dollar spent.
otherwise it can get really out of hand.
we have been very carefull in this respect.
one of the bigest most expensive things you could encounter trying to go faster would be if you had to pay labor on the improvements.
anyway if it makes the air coolder than you have now its probably worth it.
then again i keep thinking all this crap is worth it. lol
ed
HotRudyRod said:
the anwer to this question is the faster you want to go from where ever you are now the more it begins to cost.
colder air makes power as the air becomes denser.
as well as you go faster and faster it can become more and more expensive to get even some of those small gains.
the trick is to spend the money where each and eveytime you get the most hp improvement for the dollar spent.
otherwise it can get really out of hand.
we have been very carefull in this respect.
one of the bigest most expensive things you could encounter trying to go faster would be if you had to pay labor on the improvements.
anyway if it makes the air coolder than you have now its probably worth it.
then again i keep thinking all this crap is worth it. lol
ed
JayLo
Sir Boost-a-Lot
Re: Too Much Intercooling...?
The trade off with intercooling is that you add a flow restriction (the heat exchanger) in the path of the charge air.
Having a poorly designed intercooler system (one with a huge pressure drop, such as a stock turbododge air-to-air piece) can in some cases be worse than running no intercooler at all. In these cases, the compressor has to work that much harder (overspinning past the sweet spot on the compressor map) to overcome a flow restriction that provides a minimal amount of intercooling just to create the desired amount of manifold pressure.
As ed stated above, colder air is more dense and thus makes more power. If it?s done right, then no, there is no such thing as too much intercooling.
________
Washington Medical Marijuana Dispensaries
The trade off with intercooling is that you add a flow restriction (the heat exchanger) in the path of the charge air.
Having a poorly designed intercooler system (one with a huge pressure drop, such as a stock turbododge air-to-air piece) can in some cases be worse than running no intercooler at all. In these cases, the compressor has to work that much harder (overspinning past the sweet spot on the compressor map) to overcome a flow restriction that provides a minimal amount of intercooling just to create the desired amount of manifold pressure.
As ed stated above, colder air is more dense and thus makes more power. If it?s done right, then no, there is no such thing as too much intercooling.
________
Washington Medical Marijuana Dispensaries
Last edited:
HotRudyRod
New member
Re: Too Much Intercooling...?
Can the pressure drop be avoided by not making the system restrictive, say small diameter hoses, conectors and sudden 90 degree bends?
Does the lenght of the liquid, air or air liquid lines has a negative effect on pressure?
Anyone here used dried ice in their cooler before?
Thanks.
JayLo said:The trade off with intercooling is that you add a flow restriction (the heat exchanger) in the path of the charge air.
Having a poorly designed intercooler system (one with a huge pressure drop, such as a stock turbododge air-to-air piece) can in some cases be worse than running no intercooler at all. .
As ed stated above, colder air is more dense and thus makes more power. If it’s done right, then no, there is no such thing as too much intercooling.
Can the pressure drop be avoided by not making the system restrictive, say small diameter hoses, conectors and sudden 90 degree bends?
Does the lenght of the liquid, air or air liquid lines has a negative effect on pressure?
Anyone here used dried ice in their cooler before?
Thanks.
sy538
New member
Re: Too Much Intercooling...?
In a water to air system most people smooth out the intake side of the upper IC. Most people also add an auxiliary heat exchanger. Anything you do to add heat exchangers or add more water to the system will make the IC work better, but I feel that there is a point where you can have too much water and the weight of the water will offset the improvement of the IC. In my opinion (opinion only, I can not back this up) the faster the water is moving the better it is, but I’m not worried about the 2 or 3 90* elbows I have in mine, just make sure there are no kinks in the lines.
RPM and I think KB make air to air ICs for our trucks and I’m sure either is a great mod for anyone that wants to run higher boost. In theory an air to air system should increase lag, because of the extra air that has to be compressed before the engine sees boost, but I’m pretty sure in practice it is not at all noticeable.
In a water to air system most people smooth out the intake side of the upper IC. Most people also add an auxiliary heat exchanger. Anything you do to add heat exchangers or add more water to the system will make the IC work better, but I feel that there is a point where you can have too much water and the weight of the water will offset the improvement of the IC. In my opinion (opinion only, I can not back this up) the faster the water is moving the better it is, but I’m not worried about the 2 or 3 90* elbows I have in mine, just make sure there are no kinks in the lines.
RPM and I think KB make air to air ICs for our trucks and I’m sure either is a great mod for anyone that wants to run higher boost. In theory an air to air system should increase lag, because of the extra air that has to be compressed before the engine sees boost, but I’m pretty sure in practice it is not at all noticeable.
JayLo
Sir Boost-a-Lot
Re: Too Much Intercooling...?
I was speaking more of air side restrictions in the path to the throttle body.
Smaller hose and pipe diameters would mean you'd need a little more pump head to maintain the desired water flow rate. I think the extra amp draw on a slightly larger intercooler pump would be small potatoes compared to having to overcome a larger flow restriction on the air side on the intercooler system.
The length of the lines is directly related to the pumping losses, the longer the lines, the more pump energy you?ll need to pump a certain gpm. Also, a water glycol mix takes more pump energy that straight water, though the amount is probably negligible considering how small of a flow rate we are talking.
For our application, unless you go way to small on the IC water lines, I wouldn?t give hose diameter a second thought. The recommendation of replacing the kink-bent metal lines with ?? heater hose seems like a sound one. It should flow the same, but not be as prone to pick up heat as the steel lines.
________
Kid Depakote
I was speaking more of air side restrictions in the path to the throttle body.
Smaller hose and pipe diameters would mean you'd need a little more pump head to maintain the desired water flow rate. I think the extra amp draw on a slightly larger intercooler pump would be small potatoes compared to having to overcome a larger flow restriction on the air side on the intercooler system.
The length of the lines is directly related to the pumping losses, the longer the lines, the more pump energy you?ll need to pump a certain gpm. Also, a water glycol mix takes more pump energy that straight water, though the amount is probably negligible considering how small of a flow rate we are talking.
For our application, unless you go way to small on the IC water lines, I wouldn?t give hose diameter a second thought. The recommendation of replacing the kink-bent metal lines with ?? heater hose seems like a sound one. It should flow the same, but not be as prone to pick up heat as the steel lines.
________
Kid Depakote
Last edited:
JayLo
Sir Boost-a-Lot
Re: Too Much Intercooling...?
More water in the system should increase the time until it?s heat soaked due to the larger thermal mass. On the other hand, when the engine isn?t boosting, it will take longer to bring the temps back down for the same reason.
Some of the real high hp guys have huge tanks they pack with ice before a run. In the situation of a drag car, there should definitely be some benefit. For street/strip such as mine, I don?t want to hack the thing apart, so I guess I?ll have to live with the space provided.
________
Buy Glass Bongs
More water in the system should increase the time until it?s heat soaked due to the larger thermal mass. On the other hand, when the engine isn?t boosting, it will take longer to bring the temps back down for the same reason.
Some of the real high hp guys have huge tanks they pack with ice before a run. In the situation of a drag car, there should definitely be some benefit. For street/strip such as mine, I don?t want to hack the thing apart, so I guess I?ll have to live with the space provided.
________
Buy Glass Bongs
Last edited:
JayLo
Sir Boost-a-Lot
Re: Too Much Intercooling...?
Does anyone make an air-to-air kit for our trucks that doesn?t require extensive modification?
I had a big Spearco on my Dodge Spirit. The lag associated from it was really minimal and it flowed 1080cfm at only 1.5psi pressure drop.
I?ve seen at least one mounted behind the radiator. Why anyone would want do that is beyond me. I wouldn?t think you would get very good ambient air temps to cool the IC after they have been preheated by the radiator.
________
The View Condo
Does anyone make an air-to-air kit for our trucks that doesn?t require extensive modification?
I had a big Spearco on my Dodge Spirit. The lag associated from it was really minimal and it flowed 1080cfm at only 1.5psi pressure drop.
I?ve seen at least one mounted behind the radiator. Why anyone would want do that is beyond me. I wouldn?t think you would get very good ambient air temps to cool the IC after they have been preheated by the radiator.
________
The View Condo
Last edited:
sy538
New member
Re: Too Much Intercooling...?
If you only add water by adding another heat exchanger (tranny cooler or heater core behind the grill) it will take longer to heat soak the extra water but with the extra area to shed heat it should not take any longer to cool off, as long as air is moving across the heat exchangers.
If you only add water by adding another heat exchanger (tranny cooler or heater core behind the grill) it will take longer to heat soak the extra water but with the extra area to shed heat it should not take any longer to cool off, as long as air is moving across the heat exchangers.
Will_in_China
Truckless Wonder
Re: Too Much Intercooling...?
Progressive Alky I think is all that is necessary for an all but full-blown race truck.
Datamastered Garin's Ty today: 22lbs of boost with a 20g8 and 91 octane, no knock.
Cheapy wiperfluid no less and his stock IC sucks (140's).
Progressive Alky I think is all that is necessary for an all but full-blown race truck.
Datamastered Garin's Ty today: 22lbs of boost with a 20g8 and 91 octane, no knock.
Cheapy wiperfluid no less and his stock IC sucks (140's).
HotRudyRod
New member
Re: Too Much Intercooling...?
That's why im asking, i was running my 20G with an alki proggresive injection syst' one cold 3am morning in my truck at 18 and 22lbs and it felt really fast, then the ic pump went bad and it felt really slow once the water heated up. So i was wondering if i should throw some money at it and may be design me a double or triple coolin aid, is there are any worthy gains on cooling, alki, race gas at 18+ lbs? Or is it just overkill?
Ps, my engine are purely bolt ons at the moment.
Will_in_Denver said:
That's why im asking, i was running my 20G with an alki proggresive injection syst' one cold 3am morning in my truck at 18 and 22lbs and it felt really fast, then the ic pump went bad and it felt really slow once the water heated up. So i was wondering if i should throw some money at it and may be design me a double or triple coolin aid, is there are any worthy gains on cooling, alki, race gas at 18+ lbs? Or is it just overkill?
Ps, my engine are purely bolt ons at the moment.
Will_in_China
Truckless Wonder
Re: Too Much Intercooling...?
A properly prepared (repaired?) Stock IC System should be sufficient for your truck, but you can end up messing around for months trying to get that right.
A2A and Alky sounds like a yummy combo if you have the dough.
A properly prepared (repaired?) Stock IC System should be sufficient for your truck, but you can end up messing around for months trying to get that right.
A2A and Alky sounds like a yummy combo if you have the dough.
TheNeek
this is my serious face
Re: Too Much Intercooling...?
A bunch of guys do water injection to bring down intake charge temps. The phase change from liquid to gas in water takes a lot more energy than that of alcohol. The only problem is that water vapor doesn't really combust. Water injection will decrease intake temps volume per volume more than alcohol. But weither you'll get more power I'm unsure of as the water vapor takes up space in the combustion chamber which could be better used for air or fuel.
Just remember that the colder the air the more dense it is... which means you need more fuel to properly combust it. Going lean no bueno.
A bunch of guys do water injection to bring down intake charge temps. The phase change from liquid to gas in water takes a lot more energy than that of alcohol. The only problem is that water vapor doesn't really combust. Water injection will decrease intake temps volume per volume more than alcohol. But weither you'll get more power I'm unsure of as the water vapor takes up space in the combustion chamber which could be better used for air or fuel.
Just remember that the colder the air the more dense it is... which means you need more fuel to properly combust it. Going lean no bueno.
ed hess
race or get outta the way
Re: Too Much Intercooling...?
here is a link to a good intercooler setup.
not for our trucks but i am posting it because the same guy did my headers, turbo, wastegate, intercooler, radiator support setup i am selling.
the article basically shows that a properly done setup will be efficient without pressure loss and keep the intake charge cool.
oh yeah and the same guy will be doing my next setup.
http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0104_htp_cooler/
tytom should be pleased to read this!
ed
here is a link to a good intercooler setup.
not for our trucks but i am posting it because the same guy did my headers, turbo, wastegate, intercooler, radiator support setup i am selling.
the article basically shows that a properly done setup will be efficient without pressure loss and keep the intake charge cool.
oh yeah and the same guy will be doing my next setup.
http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0104_htp_cooler/
tytom should be pleased to read this!
ed
HotRudyRod
New member
Re: Too Much Intercooling...?
Thanks for the link Ed, im just half way thru and i like the info. I just wonder if cooler gas has a better effect on top of the coolers.
Thanks for the link Ed, im just half way thru and i like the info. I just wonder if cooler gas has a better effect on top of the coolers.
Tooky
Serious about performance
Re: Too Much Intercooling...?
The best value for your dollar spent is by far alcohol injection. I got it and it worked so good my buddy also got it and neither of us ever looked back or has run race gas since.. Check the times in my sig, too. BTW when my buddy added the alcohol injection , it dropped his MAT temperatures much further than the A2A did in the first place! LOL and his A2A cost about $2500 and the Alcohol cost $380 not to mention eliminated the need for 110 leaded race gas...
Yes "colder air is denser" we have all heard that before, but if it doesn't give you seat of the pants increases or gains in your timeslips then who really cares what it does for your MAT temps?
* The Scientific Method for testing basically says: Test and note existing results. Change only ONE thing. Test again and compare results."
I would say resoundingly YES. Ed Hess put it well when he said:HotRudyRod said:
When it comes to intercoolers, especially VERY CO$TLY Air-to-air intercoolers, I think you will find it almost impossible to find any documented, scientific* tested results from SyTy owners showing an honest-to-goodness significant increase in performance (greater than 2 tenths or 2 mph). A local SyTy friend of mine put a monster race CAS A2A intercooler on that fills his entire radiator core support, in place of his stock intercooler. He runs 21-25 PSI boost on a stock motor with PT54. The results? 0mph and 0 tenth increase. He can not run any more boost on pump gas before knock. His turbo spools a little slower. His MAT temps went down but that's more eye-candy than anything, we spend the money to feel REAL gains in acceleration, of which he recieved none from this "upgrade". I am convinced that for 95% of owners, A2A intercoolers are virtually a myth. The fact they cost $1000 and up is just a kick in the ass...
The best value for your dollar spent is by far alcohol injection. I got it and it worked so good my buddy also got it and neither of us ever looked back or has run race gas since.. Check the times in my sig, too. BTW when my buddy added the alcohol injection , it dropped his MAT temperatures much further than the A2A did in the first place! LOL and his A2A cost about $2500 and the Alcohol cost $380 not to mention eliminated the need for 110 leaded race gas...
Yes "colder air is denser" we have all heard that before, but if it doesn't give you seat of the pants increases or gains in your timeslips then who really cares what it does for your MAT temps?
* The Scientific Method for testing basically says: Test and note existing results. Change only ONE thing. Test again and compare results."
HotRudyRod
New member
Re: Too Much Intercooling...?
Anybody ever thought of an air conditioner condenser in a custom housing and then conecting it to the air conditioning lines to cool it up right before a run? The compresor could be turned off right from the cock pit so it wouldn't rob any gains.
Anybody ever thought of an air conditioner condenser in a custom housing and then conecting it to the air conditioning lines to cool it up right before a run? The compresor could be turned off right from the cock pit so it wouldn't rob any gains.
Last edited:
sy538
New member
Re: Too Much Intercooling...?
Yes, there was a company that made a kit like you are describing a few years ago, I believe it was very expensive and very complicated. I don’t know of anyone that used it. I think the company went out of business.
Some people say that if you turn on your AC and move the temp slider all the way up to hot, that it will blow cold air on your heater core… Some people say that it won't. If it does all you have to do is run your IC water through your heater core. I might try it whenever I get around to replacing my heater core.
Yes, there was a company that made a kit like you are describing a few years ago, I believe it was very expensive and very complicated. I don’t know of anyone that used it. I think the company went out of business.
Some people say that if you turn on your AC and move the temp slider all the way up to hot, that it will blow cold air on your heater core… Some people say that it won't. If it does all you have to do is run your IC water through your heater core. I might try it whenever I get around to replacing my heater core.
Andreas
New member
Re: Too Much Intercooling...?
The company was Cool Flow, Houston TX. They called it Intracooler.
This is a nice IC. Just the thing I want(ed). Adding a chamber for fluid circulation to take the first high heat from turbo.
http://images.northeastsyty.com/files/A2A+H2O.jpg
The company was Cool Flow, Houston TX. They called it Intracooler.
This is a nice IC. Just the thing I want(ed). Adding a chamber for fluid circulation to take the first high heat from turbo.
http://images.northeastsyty.com/files/A2A+H2O.jpg