Update on 4L80E

[mrsyclone]

Hello

This is the latest update on my 4L80E. The adapter between transfercase and transmission is ready. the specialmade outputshaft is also ready. My new PI Vilgante converter is coming tomorrow. Next Monday I will recieve my new shafts, front and rear. Also, some "goodies" from ART CARR will arrive next week too.

My trip to Santa Pod (England) looks a lot brighter right now. This trip is planned to be in the beginning of September (hope to run a nine) :evil:

This weekend I´m gonna race for the last time with my 4L60E. Which I´m sure is gonna blow in piecec again. If it´s gonna hold up though, I´m gonna run very low tens. 0X


Thats all today folks!

Robert (Sweden)

 

[Blake]

Outstanding. Take some pics for us with some explanations!!
Good luck!
George

 

[myclone]

Yes, please let us know where you got the transmission to transfer case adaptor, the output shaft, and any other details that you care to share.

 

[10secTy]

I know this is a old post but where did you get the output shaft and Adaptermade? Can you please point a person in the right direction.

Thanks

Nolan

 

[myclone]

I know this is a old post but where did you get the output shaft and Adaptermade? Can you please point a person in the right direction.

Thanks

Nolan

Hey Nolan,

Ive been working on an 80E conversion that a working stiff like myself can afford for almost a year now and have yet to find a ready made adaptor "kit" for our xfer case. The 80E and TH400 share the same spline count/output shaft size Ive been told but undoubtedly are internally different as everyone on this continent Ive talked to says the TH400 and 80E output shafts will not interchange. Also, according to the person I spoke with at advanced adaptors the 400 has a slightly different bolt pattern than the 400 so using a DIY style adaptor off of a 400 to mate our xfer case with a 80E aint gonna happen. So far after SEVERAL dead end researches and prolly a $100 in long distance phone calls Im back to getting a 80E ouput shaft cut down/resplined/reheat treated and a custom/home built adaptor made.

Im all ears if anyone has already blazed this trail as Ive only got so much budget to do it myself which means it will take me years.

 

[10secTy]

Thanks for the info. I am just researching for the future and other builds in my head. If I find out anything I will let ya know but so far nothing.

Nolan

 

[MRKING]

short .

short .

Its shitty that it has been more than a year and no one has stepped up to help you guys . Its more knowledge than my pool contains , but I figured it would plane out by now . Is this trans a cheaper better stronger solution , or just another way to be efficient more reliable ??

 

[myclone]

Re: short .

Re: short .

Its shitty that it has been more than a year and no one has stepped up to help you guys . Its more knowledge than my pool contains , but I figured it would plane out by now . Is this trans a cheaper better stronger solution , or just another way to be efficient more reliable ??

I personally like the 80E better because:

1. As manufactured from GM is rated for over 600ft lb of torque.
2. Gear spread between 1st and 2nd isnt as dramatic as a 700R4.
3. Prolly unbreakable with a V6 of any caliber when properly built.
4. The thought of going years between tranny builds rather than days.

 

[skata]

i take it that there are no all wheel drive t-cases that bolt up to a 4l80, right?

i remember maybe 10 or so years ago when there was a company that sold a viscious coupler that was a bolt in deal. they would advertise "convert your four wheel drive to all wheel drive".
you would put it between your front drive shaft and the t-case. you could keep your transfer case in four wheel drive, but the viscous coupler allowed some slippage so that it could be used like all wheel drive.

if you could still find these viscious couplers, how about using it on a regular 4 wheel drive t-case with the 4l80?

maybe this is just a stupid thought. :ndrugs::

 

[myclone]

i take it that there are no all wheel drive t-cases that bolt up to a 4l80, right?

Ive heard there are and there arent depending on who I was talking to at the time but my biggest problem is that the "experts" Ive talked with either dont know or wont give up the info since they were all ppl that made/sold adaptors. The last lead I havent personally checked out is the Avalanche(sp) having the 80E and AWD and as of right now I have no clue as those trucks are so fugly I never gave them a second look until about 2 days ago.

FWIW, Im working on getting a local machinist that can do heat treating to possibly do the output shaft but not only is he a cantankerous old SOB he will only modify the shaft. He doesnt want anything to do with making the adaptor unless I drop ~$1k in his lap to start. LOL.....I got about as much chance of coming up with $1k to "throw away" right now as I do waking up in the morning president of the US so I dunno what to do about the adaptor as its beyond my skills to make it myself.

 

[JSM]

Although I haven't thought about the conversion myself yet, being my truck is far from running I very possibly could either make adaptor or have it made with my several connections.

I would need to see a picture or sketch to be able to figure out an estimated cost.

I do know when I talked to Robert the other day, he was still very happy with the 80e.

 

[turbodog]

This may be old news to you guys, but here's what I've found on the subject:
SyTy trans case is BW 1372/4472. Viscous-coupled, torque rating =?, weight =?

Late model Bravada electronic controlled transfer case is NV 136, computer controlled multi-plate wet clutch, rated at 1590 Ft-Lb (remember torque multiplication) and weighs 70 lbs

Escalade AWD, Silverado SS has NV 149 full time viscous-coupled, rated to 2203 Ft-Lb, weighs 80 lbs.

Avalanche 1500 has 4L60E (maybe 4L65E) and Auto-Trac, which is NV 246, computer controlled multi-plate wet clutch, rated to 2281 Ft-Lb and weighs 86 lbs.

The Avalanche 2500 has a 4l80E (maybe 4L85E) and Auto-Trac, which is NV 246, computer controlled multi-plate wet clutch, rated to 2281 Ft-Lb and weighs 86 lbs.


So, seems like for the 4L80E, the NV246 is the way to go. It only weighs 6 lbs more than it's viscous-coupled-no-low-range-AWD counterpart, and it apparently CAN be had in a case which will bolt up to a 4L80E. You get your on-demand 4WD. However, controlling it is not a simple 'toggle switch' wiring job. Who knows, maybe the low range will work for that 100-ft competition up in Canada....

Useful NV information::

New Venture Gear T-case terminology:

The first number is the number of speeds:

"1" = one speed (high range). Example – the NV 136.
"2" = two speeds (high range and low range). Example – the NV 241.

The second number is the strength:

The NV 241 is designated "4" in strength – tougher than the NV 231, but not as heavy duty as their largest T-cases, which go up to a "7" (eg, NV 273, for vehicles with a GVW of 17,500 lb).

The third number designates the type of T-case:

"1" = part-time 4WD
"2" = full-time 4WD with an open center differential plus lockable part-time option – like the Selec-Trac NV 242 of the Jeep Cherokee and Dodge Durango, or the Hummer’s NV 242HD AMG.
"3" = electrically shifted.
"4" = not currently used.
"5" = Torsen-type differential.
"6" = computer controlled multi-plate wet clutch, like GM’s AutoTrac NV 246.
"7" = GeroDisc – like the Grand Cherokee’s Quadra-Trac II NV 247.
"8" = not currently used.
"9" = viscous coupling.


I found this stuff at the following sites:
New Venture:
http://www.newventuregear.com/tcases.html

4X4NOW.com
http://www.4x4now.com/bd0599.htm

4L80E/4L85E Applications:
http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/transmissions/hydra/apps/4l80.htm

Info on 4L65E differences from 4L60E:
http://www.superchevy-web.com/tech/0311sc_4l65e/

 

['JustDreamin']

Hey Turbodog

I like the level of research you've done. You've certainly been doing your homework a/o surfing.

I think the NV246 would be a great swap. All of the hardware is factory available, which is great. However, there are significant drawbacks that I think ought to be mentioned. Not that you haven't thought of them, just wanted to try to think through it a little bit.

1.) The NV246 isn't available in too many platforms, therefore is likely to be really hard to find or expensive (or worse yet, both). Best I can figure, it is only available behind the 4L80E (MT1 or MN8) in the 2500 Avalanche and the 2500 Yukon, both model years 2002 to current. There might be others, its really hard to tell from GMs literature. I wouldn't be willing to bet that the version that uses the 4L60E is exactly the same. Might be, but who the heck do you ask? Anybody have contacts with a good salvage yard who could get prices? How about new? I'd bet new that tcase is $2k or more.

2.) I think the integration of the electronics might be the real nightmare. I think GM's using the ABS wheelspeed sensors to detect slippage and such. So if you wanted to use factory hardware it might be real fun to integrate into a non-factory platform. Does anybody know which ECM controls the Tcase? Is the transmission / Tcase ECM seperate from the engine ECM or is it integrated? If its integrated, how would it run without engine inputs? And I don't even want to think about creating a controller to manage the transfer case. That just seems like asking for trouble.

3.) The Tcase we're talking about has low range. Thats great if you're going off-road, but for on-road only use (which is most Ty's and Sy's I think) , there isn't any sense to having any extra rotating weight. All the extra weight will do is slow us down.

It does have the advantage of strength over the NV136 (as used in the Bravada) and compatibility with the 4L80e. It may also have a small fuel economy advantage over the BW4472, but I personally think it'd be pretty slight.


As far as the 4L80E / BW4472 combo goes, I'm interested in what is involved. I'd be willing to help out if possible. I've got some machining experience and some CAD / drafting experience. Unfortunately, I don't have ANY of the parts necessary to take decent measurements off of. So, unless you guys are close to Maryland, I don't know that I could be all that useful. Shipping transmission parts and such might be expensive. But certainly let me know if there's anything I can do.

'Dreamin'

 

[turbodog]

Hey, 'Dreamin'
Good thoughts. Kind of discussion I was hoping for. I know I have a tranny in my future...I'd sure like to do it up so bulletproof I never have to worry again. I'm stock now, but the certainty of a tranny failure if I start modifying is exactly what keeps me from doing it (I'm at 120k mi on original tranny).

Agreed the electronics are a problem. I figured worst case I would need a whole Avalanche ECM just to run the tranny and transfer case. Maybe need the Avalanche ABS too, to have the right signals. Like you said "who the heck do you ask?"

Good news is, you can pick up a rebuilt unit here:
http://www.drivetrain.com/transfercaseapp.html
for about a grand.

I agree the low range is wasted weight (but only 8 lbs... but you're right, most of it is rotating mass, I bet). I'm thinking you might be able to open it up and gut the low range hardware. If a planetary setup, the rotating mass is really not much different. Just the mechanism to lock the correct ring.

As for the BW TCase, I have one laying around, I can pull dimensions off it if that helps. I think the kicker for 4L80E/BW4472 is tranny output shaft/TC input compatibility. Need a custom shaft.

I'll neep nosing around. Maybe find a schematic for an Avalanche.

Later.

 

[myclone]

Youve found more info in prolly a week than Ive found in months. Great work BTW.

That being said Im not a fan of using a true 4wd xfer case as it gets complicated REALLY quick use compared to the viscous coupled xfer case IMO whether at the track or on the street. Im working on getting some dimensions for the various 80E output shafts (4wd vs 2wd) so I can decide which shaft would be better to start with. As Im sure other ppl can understand I only have so much extra cash to work with so when I pick up an 80E I'll need one that will need the least amount of machining to the shaft which=cheaper.

An adaptor blue print can prolly be fabricated fairly easy by a savvy CAD person, which Im not, so I will have to rely on getting a 80E and xfer case in hand so I can see how everything will line up and fit then have someone make a prettier version of my home built adaptor.

Least thats my plan as flawed as it is.

 

[JSM]

I have talked to Robert a few times in past 2 weeks and we did discuss the 80e conversion.

From our conversation today it requires
New output shaft
tranny to transfer case adaptor (he still has stock transfer case)
Shorter rear driveshat
Longer front driveshaft
Some shifter modification to cable bracket


I have been promised some pictures, and plan in my spare time to find a 80e and mock it up with my spare transfer case to develop the parts needed.

Jeff

 

[Trizney]

opcorn:

This is some good stuff!!

 

[skata]

would it be easier to make a new input shaft for the transfer case? instead of the output shaft of the trans? it might be simpler to make.

or how about making an adapter shaft to connect the two? this might push the transfer case back more though.

i havent really looked into this, but i thought i'd throw out some ideas.

 

[myclone]

Something I just thought about guys.. I have a 80E in the dually so if anyone needs measurements for a 2wd shaft I can yank the tail housing/drive shaft to get em.

FWIW, I havent located a salvage yard local that has a 80E 4wd unit that they will let me go out and measure. However, I have put the word out to my buds at the local bone yards to lemme know if they get a 4wd unit in that I can look over.

would it be easier to make a new input shaft for the transfer case? instead of the output shaft of the trans? it might be simpler to make.

Ive looked that over somewhat and it looks WAY harder to make a new input coupler for the xfer case. If you look at a xfer case there isnt a lot of room to make a bigger coupler to mate with a stock 80E output shaft. Also, from talking with a couple of machinists local its hugely more expensive to cut splines on the inside of something compared to cutting splines on the outside of a shaft.

or how about making an adapter shaft to connect the two? this might push the transfer case back more though..

Ive thought about that briefly but IMO a coupler to connect the two mismatched shafts would be fairly long which would make for a long front drive shaft and short rear drive shaft due to the space between the trans and xfer case that would be needed to fit the shaft adaptor thingy. Personally I like keeping the xfer case as close to the trans as possible so that the torsional stresses dont have enough room to twist/fatigue(sp?) the coupling.

My .02

 

['JustDreamin']

Hey Guys...

I like that there is some interest in this. I kept searching for info, found that a couple of folks had done the swap, but couldn't find anything else.


I have some machining experience. Making the female side of the splines is really, really really tough. I can only think of a couple of ways to do it, and all of them are a pain in the butt (read expensive). I think any coupling or replacement input shaft would certainly be cost prohibitive.

As far as machining new splines, that shouldn't be too expensive (relative to making an entirely new shaft or machining a splined pocket). Done properly, I think you probably could even machine the shaft and not have to heat treat it again. There are a very important reason to do it this way.
Steel moves around when you heat treat it. Depending upon the alloy, and the shape of the part, it can pull quite a bit. I've seen round shafts "bend" .015" over an 8" length after heat treatment. Which is why most good machine shops intentionally leave stuff big, harden it up, and then grind it to final size.

So, if you're machining a hardened shaft, that just means that the tools have to change. You've got to have beefy machinery so that it doesn't vibrate. You've got to use carbide tooling if you're going to use a conventional machining process. And the best thing to do would be to finish the splines by grinding.

I wonder if any of the shops that do axle shaft shortening can / would be interested / willing to do this kind of job for us, once we figure out what needs to happen?

I'm very interested in this swap. I don't own a sy or ty. I want to build a clone (mostly because I can't buy a 2nd gen 4dr ty with a turbo'd v8) and for these trucks the transmission seems to be the weak link. I want a daily driver that I can beat on, but will be reliable as the sun (or at least close). Unfortunatly, that seems to require a heavier tranny.


BTW, Myclone, where is Gooberville in VA? I'm just north of annapolis, MD., so if you're in NOVA you'd be close.

Well, thats most of my thoughts for the moment.

OOPs, forgot one. For those who have either done this swap or talk to someone who has: What mods were required to the truck otherwise? What I mean is this: Did you have to shift the engine forward or beat the tar out of the tranny tunnel or....? Anything else things to look out for before diving in?

'Dreamin'