Valvetrain setup problems and other woes

[Bad Ass Black Trucks]

Finally getting time to work on my motor and I keep running into problems.

Basic info for this problem: Balance shaft block, with L-35 heads.

I have a set of self aligning, Crane Gold Race 1.6 rr's from another project that I am trying to use on this build. The heads use screw in rocker studs (not sure if L35's came threaded but mine are). I located the rocker studs and guideplates (to use as spacers) that other guys on the forum have used in the past.

I took the time to use a pushrod length tool and select the correct length pushrod in order to have the rocker sweep across the center of tip of the valve stem. Like this:

It came out to a funky 6.9" (Comp 7631) but I went with it. It is shorter than stock which is 7.1" if I remember correctly. Stock is on top, Comp on the bottom.

I cut down the guideplates today and went to set things up. Unfortunately, I ran into several problems. #1 the Pushrod looks to be hitting the head in the dinky passage down to the lifter. :squint: Why the hell is it so small? I didn't notice that problem with the pushrod length tool.

Oh, I visually verified that the cam was on the base circle for these photos. Photos were taken at zero lash.

I guess I could grind away at the passage to make some clearance, but the heads are locked down on cometics and I really don't want to pull them off or have to break out the die grinder and shop vac.

Problem #2: The poly-locks hit the body at 0 lash with the 6.9" pushrods. :rant:

We're looking at the rocker on the right in the above image.

I'm guessing that longer poly-locks are available? I definitely won't be able to use stock valve covers with this setup now.

For curiosity's sake, I grabbed a pushrod out of the old motor and:

The pushrod clears the passage in the head to the valley and the poly-lock has enough clearance to go to 0 Lash plus 1 turn.

Well Crap! I could get stock length pushrods, but the geometry on the valve will be off! Here is a comparison picture. 6.9" Pushrod on the left and Stock on the right. The stock length pushrod puts the rocker at the middle of the valve stem and it sweeps over near the edge when the cam actuates the valve.

I am not dead set on using these rockers, but the cam is barely better than stock. I do have a set of 1.6 roller tip rockers somewhere. I guess I can see how things look with them sometime soon.

Anybody have any suggestions?

Other questions:

-What size is the -AN fitting that feeds the turbo oil?

-What size is the turbo oil drain fitting in the pan? The pan I got was tweaked when the fitting was removed. Need to try and clean out the threads with a tap.

-My engine is internally balanced, will a stock damper be okay to use? I have a stock one in good condition.

-I bought an ARP Balancer bolt, 2.47" long (Under Head Length). It was too long for my crank. Is that weird? My stock bolt is 2.2" long when measured with calipers.

-I got the wrong balance shaft timing chain cover (too new). It has fewer bolts than my block has. Think it would leak where the block has a hole and the cover doesn't have a fastener if I tried to use it?

Thanks to any advice you guys can give! I'm getting frustrated.

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: Valvetrain setup problems and other woes

Did you take any photos of the marks on the valves from your pushrod assessment? Stock are 7.187 so you are .3" out which seems a lot but with L35s, head grind for Cometics and new rockers, it's entirely possible.

Try 7.0 and 7.1 - you have the tool right?

I'm not sure on the L35s but one of the problems with my vortecs and those exact same RRs was the height of the rocker studs. I ended up placing an ARP washer under each stud to give it the elevation. I used short poly locks as well to get the clearance from the valve covers but that doesn't seem possible in your case.

Your issue seems to be that the rockers are too high on the stud, not the length of the stud itself. You could put a washer under each poly lock to give you some clearance maybe?

Otherwise, like you say, you're into longer poly locks and custom valve covers and removing the heads to grind out the push rod passages. Cometics are reusable if that helps.

What turbo? Mine is -4AN feed. The return is a -10 and the fitting into the 90 block on the pan is 3/4 NPT. Let me find the link for that thread.....

 

[BMFB]

Re: Valvetrain setup problems and other woes

How much lift are you running on the cam? I am running L-35's with the stock push rods and stock rockers with no issues... the extra .1 lift from 1.6's on a turbo motor doesn't usually yield much more power. just an option I'm trowing out there. This is of coarse on a non-balance shaft motor, and I'm not sure of the difference on the rest of the valve train.

 

[Icarus-54]

Re: Valvetrain setup problems and other woes

On my green ty I run 1.6 crane gold self align rockers with stock size push rods on cut L-35's with no problems.Mark your valve stems with a magic marker,set the rocker to zero lash plus 1/4 turn,then turn the engine over a few times and look at the wear marks.

 

[Bad Ass Black Trucks]

Re: Valvetrain setup problems and other woes

Did you take any photos of the marks on the valves from your pushrod assessment? Stock are 7.187 so you are .3" out which seems a lot but with L35s, head grind for Cometics and new rockers, it's entirely possible.

Try 7.0 and 7.1 - you have the tool right?

Unfortunately I don't have any pictures of the measurements. I used a marker on the tip of the valve and rotated the motor. Then removed the rocker and looked at the travel across the valve. I did it several times trying to get a clear picture and then a couple more when I was getting 6.9" for the length. Visually the 6.9" pushrod moves the rocker tip right over the center of the valve. But I think that the pushrod length tool was slightly smaller in diameter than the pushrod and was something I didn't consider.

Your issue seems to be that the rockers are too high on the stud, not the length of the stud itself. You could put a washer under each poly lock to give you some clearance maybe?

I think you're onto something there. Perhaps my valves are a little longer than stock in addition to the grind on the heads. Making the overall geometry not agree with the dinky pushrod passage in the head.

I thought about adding washers under the poly locks to see what it looked like at 1 turn past zero lash, just couldn't find any washers in the shop that fit. I'll check around my garage.

Otherwise, like you say, you're into longer poly locks and custom valve covers and removing the heads to grind out the push rod passages. Cometics are reusable if that helps.

I forgot cometics were reusable. Thanks for that little ray of sunshine. I still would like to avoid pulling the heads though. Do your rockers fit under the valve covers? Do you have stock sheet metal valve covers or the plastic vortecs?

I did a test fit with stock length pushrods and it didn't look like it was going to work with the poly-locks I have. Hard to guess at how much the gasket adds until you do install it.

What turbo? Mine is -4AN feed. The return is a -10 and the fitting into the 90 block on the pan is 3/4 NPT. Let me find the link for that thread.....

I have a 60-1, but the main reason I asked is because I have a turbo-oil filter that I got from RPM. I need to make some custom lines to run over to it and then the turbo.

 

[Bad Ass Black Trucks]

Re: Valvetrain setup problems and other woes

How much lift are you running on the cam? I am running L-35's with the stock push rods and stock rockers with no issues... the extra .1 lift from 1.6's on a turbo motor doesn't usually yield much more power. just an option I'm trowing out there. This is of coarse on a non-balance shaft motor, and I'm not sure of the difference on the rest of the valve train.

Cam is .407/.429 and 250/260 duration. The stock rockers are very worn. If I had some descent 1.5's I would see how they work.

 

[Bad Ass Black Trucks]

Re: Valvetrain setup problems and other woes

Cam is .407/.429 and 250/260 duration. The stock rockers are very worn. If I had some descent 1.5's I would see how they work.

Just noticed how much stinkin duration there is on my cam... is that too much for a turbo motor? It's on 112 LSA.

The motor was built for an NA application but the guy couldn't pay for it and abandoned the project. I stuffed dished pistons and H-beams in. I thought the cam matched up with one used in syty's before. Might have been wrong. I think I need to focus on one project at a time.

 

[Bad Ass Black Trucks]

Re: Valvetrain setup problems and other woes

Just noticed how much stinkin duration there is on my cam... is that too much for a turbo motor? It's on 112 LSA.

Upon doing more research I found the cam list that sytyguy made in 2003:

The cam I have is listed there as194/204 duration but when I look up the cam on Summit or Jegs it shows up as 250/260.


http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15850&pp=15&page=2
1439801 - PowerMax
- Lift (I/E) - .407/.429
- Duration @ .050 (I/E) - 194/204
- Lobe Separation - 112 deg

Looks like I will be trying to figure out exactly what the duration is. Any tips. I don't have a cam degree wheel.

 

[THEMADTYPH00N]

Re: Valvetrain setup problems and other woes

Why are you using self aligning rocker AND guide plates? it should be one or the other.

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: Valvetrain setup problems and other woes

Good spot. x2

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Valvetrain setup problems and other woes

250/260 is the duration at .002, 194/204 is the duration at .050, most specs will quote the 0.050 duration numbers.

 

[Bad Ass Black Trucks]

Re: Valvetrain setup problems and other woes

Why are you using self aligning rocker AND guide plates? it should be one or the other.

You missed that I am not using the guideplates as guideplates. They have been cut down and only act as spacers to get the studs at the right height. I didn't come up with the idea, several guys on the forum are doing the same thing. Washers could be used to accomplish the same thing.

 

[Bad Ass Black Trucks]

Re: Valvetrain setup problems and other woes

250/260 is the duration at .002, 194/204 is the duration at .050, most specs will quote the 0.050 duration numbers.

That is a good catch. Thanks for pointing that out. I never noticed anyone quoting a cam at .002.

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: Valvetrain setup problems and other woes

Update?

 

[ed hess]

Re: Valvetrain setup problems and other woes

Just exactly what do you mean "to get the studs at the right height".

Looks to me like using the guide paltes as spacers put your studs at the wrong height.

Then you measure your req'd pushrod length but find other problems because of the spacers.

try this: remove all spacers, check for new req'd length. test fit. open holes as needed.

Following any manufactureers method for checking geometry works well but just because you dont want to do something doesnt mean its going to give you the lazyway out and actually work. this whole process takes an an hour or 2 if you have to grind a little metal. no big deal.