What do you think it would cost to build a reliable 11 second Sy.
- Thread starter Mikeyd99
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dgoodhue
BuSTeD 4.3
Re: What do you think it would cost to build a reliable 11 second Sy.
I built my Syclone to be a reliable mid 11 second truck and was aiming for ~500hp. One can put on a moderate sized turbo on a stock motor and it can run mid 11 with right supporting mods and high octane, but at that level the tune has to be spot on and it won't take much of a tuning glitch to blow up the motor.
Here are my recommendations.
-You will need the typical reliability mods Walbro fuel pump, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, vacuum lines, good plugs, wires, cap, rotor, fuel filter etc. ($500)
-Transmission. A built 4L60 with about $1000 in parts can hold 11's. (This is not the typical transmission shops high performance rebuild kit with Corvette Servo and shift that we already have and basically cost $250 with only marginally better parts than the $200 stock rebuild kit). The trans needs to properly assembled, with all new parts and the clearance for the clutch are all spot. ($2000)
-Properly Sized Quality Torque Converter for the Turbo/Engine combo ($800)
-Upgraded Front Propshaft ($500)
-Moderate Sized Turbo (something around a PTE6262) 3" Down Pipe, 3" Catback Exhaust. I would skip the 20G's hybrid Mitsubishi Turbos. ($2500)
-Air to Air Intercooler. It is not required but they are more efficient at cooling and quality a2A IC have less a pressure drop across the intercooler core than the W2A. For instance the stock Turbo has approx. 4.5 pressure drop. So at 16psi, the turbo is pushing 20.5psi. Quality A2A have about 2.5psi prop, so the turbo pushes 18.5psi to make 16psi. The turbo is more likely to be efficient at the lower pressure, plus it reduces the exhaust back pressure by a few psi Basically, a motor is going to make more hp at 16 psi with an A2A than W2A in the example above. ($1200)
-Rebuilt motor with Forged Pistons, Rods, 4 bolt mains, and either 415 comp cam or a custom cam. (I use a custom cam with .531/.531 214/214 115 lobe separation that I am happy with).
($5000)
-Vortec Heads and matched intake. If you want to make the power on straight pump gas, I would recommend porting them. A theoretical example (just using my experience and intuition based on flow number) would be a ported head/custom motor might 450hp @ 16 psi. Stock Vortecs might need 18psi to make 450hp. Stock Heads/Cam probably need 25psi to make 450hp, L35's/stock cam probably 23psi. The downside to porting is the 2.02/1.6 valves can crack the heads because of the thin metal between the valves. I used 2.00/1.60 valves for that reason alone. ($2500)
-If your hell bent on make good hp on pump gas, you may want to look into the front facing intake. They correct the air flow distribution at higher PSI, but I have a sneaky suspicison that they flow better than the stock intake as well
-ECM, I am using code $59 and WB02, but if your not into the DIY tuning or don't have the time do it the Holley EFI system seem popular and user friendly. 60# injectors are good enough for 11's. Somewhere around 17psi is going to the limits of straight pump gas before detonation happens. I use Alky Control's methanol injection which work great, but those system aren't 100% reliable. Race gas works as well. ($3000)
I quick put prices on the parts of the top of my head, you might be able to source them cheaper. I guess that puts the bill at around $19,500 without labor. Unported Vortec's would save $1500, Code $59 would save $2000. At this price point your are getting into the area near where a LS1/4L80E swap costs.
Also you probably at the very least want to upgrade the brakes and likely the suspension. I personally think 450-500 hp is a good hp level for these trucks. It is super quick off the line and it pulls pretty good on the highway. If you start upping the hp to 600, 700, 800 etc. most of the gains are going to be on the highway. My truck is probably already too fast for its own good as it is on the highway.
BTW this is also a recipe for an unreliable mid-high 10 sec truck :lol:
I built my Syclone to be a reliable mid 11 second truck and was aiming for ~500hp. One can put on a moderate sized turbo on a stock motor and it can run mid 11 with right supporting mods and high octane, but at that level the tune has to be spot on and it won't take much of a tuning glitch to blow up the motor.
Here are my recommendations.
-You will need the typical reliability mods Walbro fuel pump, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, vacuum lines, good plugs, wires, cap, rotor, fuel filter etc. ($500)
-Transmission. A built 4L60 with about $1000 in parts can hold 11's. (This is not the typical transmission shops high performance rebuild kit with Corvette Servo and shift that we already have and basically cost $250 with only marginally better parts than the $200 stock rebuild kit). The trans needs to properly assembled, with all new parts and the clearance for the clutch are all spot. ($2000)
-Properly Sized Quality Torque Converter for the Turbo/Engine combo ($800)
-Upgraded Front Propshaft ($500)
-Moderate Sized Turbo (something around a PTE6262) 3" Down Pipe, 3" Catback Exhaust. I would skip the 20G's hybrid Mitsubishi Turbos. ($2500)
-Air to Air Intercooler. It is not required but they are more efficient at cooling and quality a2A IC have less a pressure drop across the intercooler core than the W2A. For instance the stock Turbo has approx. 4.5 pressure drop. So at 16psi, the turbo is pushing 20.5psi. Quality A2A have about 2.5psi prop, so the turbo pushes 18.5psi to make 16psi. The turbo is more likely to be efficient at the lower pressure, plus it reduces the exhaust back pressure by a few psi Basically, a motor is going to make more hp at 16 psi with an A2A than W2A in the example above. ($1200)
-Rebuilt motor with Forged Pistons, Rods, 4 bolt mains, and either 415 comp cam or a custom cam. (I use a custom cam with .531/.531 214/214 115 lobe separation that I am happy with).
($5000)
-Vortec Heads and matched intake. If you want to make the power on straight pump gas, I would recommend porting them. A theoretical example (just using my experience and intuition based on flow number) would be a ported head/custom motor might 450hp @ 16 psi. Stock Vortecs might need 18psi to make 450hp. Stock Heads/Cam probably need 25psi to make 450hp, L35's/stock cam probably 23psi. The downside to porting is the 2.02/1.6 valves can crack the heads because of the thin metal between the valves. I used 2.00/1.60 valves for that reason alone. ($2500)
-If your hell bent on make good hp on pump gas, you may want to look into the front facing intake. They correct the air flow distribution at higher PSI, but I have a sneaky suspicison that they flow better than the stock intake as well
-ECM, I am using code $59 and WB02, but if your not into the DIY tuning or don't have the time do it the Holley EFI system seem popular and user friendly. 60# injectors are good enough for 11's. Somewhere around 17psi is going to the limits of straight pump gas before detonation happens. I use Alky Control's methanol injection which work great, but those system aren't 100% reliable. Race gas works as well. ($3000)
I quick put prices on the parts of the top of my head, you might be able to source them cheaper. I guess that puts the bill at around $19,500 without labor. Unported Vortec's would save $1500, Code $59 would save $2000. At this price point your are getting into the area near where a LS1/4L80E swap costs.
Also you probably at the very least want to upgrade the brakes and likely the suspension. I personally think 450-500 hp is a good hp level for these trucks. It is super quick off the line and it pulls pretty good on the highway. If you start upping the hp to 600, 700, 800 etc. most of the gains are going to be on the highway. My truck is probably already too fast for its own good as it is on the highway.
BTW this is also a recipe for an unreliable mid-high 10 sec truck :lol:
randy merritt
Donating Member
Re: What do you think it would cost to build a reliable 11 second Sy.
I think Dave is spot on with his comments. My truck is a reliable mid 11 truck also. Many of my mods mirror what Dave has said. Only thing to add is that I have solid motor mounts, and I have not broken the stock prop shaft yet.
I think Dave is spot on with his comments. My truck is a reliable mid 11 truck also. Many of my mods mirror what Dave has said. Only thing to add is that I have solid motor mounts, and I have not broken the stock prop shaft yet.
Re: What do you think it would cost to build a reliable 11 second Sy.
Awesome I appreciate the info.
My truck is basically stock with the walbro pump, intercooler hotwire, forged pistons and rods, balanced crank and I am going to keep it that way. Just thought it would be interesting to see what a nice 11 second truck needs. I think a mid 12 second truck would be quick enough for me and I want to keep the truck as stock looking and streetable as possible.
Again thanks for your info and I have had my truck for 2 weeks and put about 500 miles on it and I love it.
Awesome I appreciate the info.
My truck is basically stock with the walbro pump, intercooler hotwire, forged pistons and rods, balanced crank and I am going to keep it that way. Just thought it would be interesting to see what a nice 11 second truck needs. I think a mid 12 second truck would be quick enough for me and I want to keep the truck as stock looking and streetable as possible.
Again thanks for your info and I have had my truck for 2 weeks and put about 500 miles on it and I love it.
Don W.
Stab it and steer it
Re: What do you think it would cost to build a reliable 11 second Sy.
Dave has pretty much nailed it. I have run 11.5? but normally high 11s low 12s. Weather has everything to do with it. When the sun goes down and the wind changes to a head wind, yes I said headwind, the Sy will go a 0.5 second quicker. Weird I know. All on 91 octane BTW.
The difference in my build: Stock inner-cooler, hybrid turbo with stock manifolds. 19# boost. 3" DP mandatory. Cam is custom Comp. lift 502 in, 484 ex. duration 224 & 230, separation 114. 1.5/1 (I've seen others here with this cam.) Crane roller self aligning rockers. Valve size is stock Vortex with ports just cleaned up.
One thing I didn't see was 60# (in my case) injectors. Another 600.00?? Have to check.
EDIT: Traction will be an issue. I run 24# in street tires and still have a tendency to spin at the line.
Chip is TurboTweak. Eric has been a tremendous help.
And don't forget a data logger if you don't already have one.
Dave: " My truck is probably already too fast for its own good as it is on the highway. " Agreed. Or, it's so much fun it's scary. Be careful. It will be ticket getter.
Dave has pretty much nailed it. I have run 11.5? but normally high 11s low 12s. Weather has everything to do with it. When the sun goes down and the wind changes to a head wind, yes I said headwind, the Sy will go a 0.5 second quicker. Weird I know. All on 91 octane BTW.
The difference in my build: Stock inner-cooler, hybrid turbo with stock manifolds. 19# boost. 3" DP mandatory. Cam is custom Comp. lift 502 in, 484 ex. duration 224 & 230, separation 114. 1.5/1 (I've seen others here with this cam.) Crane roller self aligning rockers. Valve size is stock Vortex with ports just cleaned up.
One thing I didn't see was 60# (in my case) injectors. Another 600.00?? Have to check.
EDIT: Traction will be an issue. I run 24# in street tires and still have a tendency to spin at the line.
Chip is TurboTweak. Eric has been a tremendous help.
And don't forget a data logger if you don't already have one.
Dave: " My truck is probably already too fast for its own good as it is on the highway. " Agreed. Or, it's so much fun it's scary. Be careful. It will be ticket getter.
Last edited:
NOJIMMY
New member
Re: What do you think it would cost to build a reliable 11 second Sy.
Dave pretty much nailed it, as usual....(but more things to consider):
If your mechanically knowledgeable, own your own tools (from welding to wrenches), have enough buddies to help (for heavy+ person lifting, hoist, creeper, jack stands, air tools etc) and plan on buying race-type fluids (like engine oil, transmission, radiator coolants which are a often overlooked expense) it all add up real quick.
Usually one can "budget for X and realistically spend 1.5X or 2X" due
to unforeseen, damaged, broken, worn out, (mislabeled Chinese/ebay or
custom fabricated parts) even for a 11 second build. This doesn't even consider if your present truck needs motor mounts, a K&N filter, suspension bushings, wheel bearings, steering dampner, new shocks, new transmission mounts or other items due to age/mileage.
Of course the next logical step logical would be to ask yourself "is its worth it"
especially if you plan running test-tune nights heads up, bracket, stock class, or street class, or plan on selling the truck in 1-2 years, or have more pressing financial needs!
Dave pretty much nailed it, as usual....(but more things to consider):
- If your planning on running 11 seconds at sea level or DAs of 8000 feet
- If your local track requires safety equipment (rollbar, driveline loops, fire extinguisher, helmet, jacket, engine diaper, catch cans or SFI certified parts)
- If your planning on testing/running with race gas, meth, E85, octane booster or pump gas with boost (detonation prevention) for your 11 seconds
- If your launching needs "help" (2-step, msd-rpm limiter, line lock, hydroboost brake, transbrake, drag radials, 2 or 4 wheel brake upgrade, rear traction springs/bars, boost controller, bov, upgraded wastegate, headers/heat wrapping)
- If your planning on vehicle weight reduction to make 11 seconds (a/c delete, torsion bar delete/coil overs, etc) a bit more obtainable
- If your planning on engine adders (Nitrous, Nano system, tranny cooler, radiator/fan upgrades, high torque mini starter, rear battery changeover/power cutoff switch).
- And if your planning on steering/handling upgrades (sway bar, steering box/shaft, steering wheel, front end limiters, lighter weight wheels)
If your mechanically knowledgeable, own your own tools (from welding to wrenches), have enough buddies to help (for heavy+ person lifting, hoist, creeper, jack stands, air tools etc) and plan on buying race-type fluids (like engine oil, transmission, radiator coolants which are a often overlooked expense) it all add up real quick.
Usually one can "budget for X and realistically spend 1.5X or 2X" due
to unforeseen, damaged, broken, worn out, (mislabeled Chinese/ebay or
custom fabricated parts) even for a 11 second build. This doesn't even consider if your present truck needs motor mounts, a K&N filter, suspension bushings, wheel bearings, steering dampner, new shocks, new transmission mounts or other items due to age/mileage.
Of course the next logical step logical would be to ask yourself "is its worth it"
especially if you plan running test-tune nights heads up, bracket, stock class, or street class, or plan on selling the truck in 1-2 years, or have more pressing financial needs!
Jimmy
Banned
Re: What do you think it would cost to build a reliable 11 second Sy.
It's always worth it Larry.
You know that.
It's always worth it Larry.
You know that.
Don W.
Stab it and steer it
Re: What do you think it would cost to build a reliable 11 second Sy.
Well.... I race mine all the time. Most Weds and some weekends for "points." I'll go the the Summit Series final in the fall at Fontana. It has literally taken years to get to this point with a couple of blown engines along the way. I'm having a great time. I'm not the oldest guy at the track. Everybody's friendly. Age and color mean nothing at the track. We're all there to have fun, beat your pants off at the line and shake hands when we're done. Love it. 'sides bracket racing helps to my mind from turning to mush.:rotf:
Well.... I race mine all the time. Most Weds and some weekends for "points." I'll go the the Summit Series final in the fall at Fontana. It has literally taken years to get to this point with a couple of blown engines along the way. I'm having a great time. I'm not the oldest guy at the track. Everybody's friendly. Age and color mean nothing at the track. We're all there to have fun, beat your pants off at the line and shake hands when we're done. Love it. 'sides bracket racing helps to my mind from turning to mush.:rotf:
Jimmy
Banned
Re: What do you think it would cost to build a reliable 11 second Sy.
A couple of blown engines?What is that in $?
I know it really doesn't matter,but we need to warn these kids coming up that our trucks are ticking time bombs.
It's the right thing to do.
A couple of blown engines?What is that in $?
I know it really doesn't matter,but we need to warn these kids coming up that our trucks are ticking time bombs.
It's the right thing to do.
Don W.
Stab it and steer it
Re: What do you think it would cost to build a reliable 11 second Sy.
Not as much as I would have guessed. 8 grand over 13 years in additions (The time I've owned the truck not counting what it cost to purchase.) and $24,400 in parts and labor. I keep everything in Quicken, only took a moment. 2010 was a bad year 31% of the 24,400 in that year alone. Doesn't count misc stuff or fuel just the truck itself.
I do all my own wrenching except to build the trans. You'd probably be surprised at the little tool set I have. Just a litle Craftsman roll-around set bought 35 years ago. Countless lost and replaced tools along the way plus a few specialist pieces. Absolutely none of this would happen BTW without the help of a great friend that lets me use a fairly large shop area for free. I am very lucky.
So 200 a month. Cheap if you look at it that way. :rotf:
Not as much as I would have guessed. 8 grand over 13 years in additions (The time I've owned the truck not counting what it cost to purchase.) and $24,400 in parts and labor. I keep everything in Quicken, only took a moment. 2010 was a bad year 31% of the 24,400 in that year alone. Doesn't count misc stuff or fuel just the truck itself.
I do all my own wrenching except to build the trans. You'd probably be surprised at the little tool set I have. Just a litle Craftsman roll-around set bought 35 years ago. Countless lost and replaced tools along the way plus a few specialist pieces. Absolutely none of this would happen BTW without the help of a great friend that lets me use a fairly large shop area for free. I am very lucky.
So 200 a month. Cheap if you look at it that way. :rotf:
NOJIMMY
New member
Re: What do you think it would cost to build a reliable 11 second Sy.
While I'm definitely not in any position to challenge your logic (having spent a bunch of $$$$ myself) it did occur to me that
Jimmy makes a valid point in evaluating your goals before the check is due.
CPI Inflation calculates your $20,000 in 2008 has the same buying power as $21,978.24 in 2015 (and thus a loss of $1,978.24) which isn't too bad.
But if you took that same $20,000 in 2008 and invested it in the stock market (even during its ups/downs) with 8 years of growth
and an average of 10% your net would be $42,871.78 with compound interest (LOL). Figuring 5% and the value becomes $29,549.11.
Or the $2,000 from inflation + $9,000 from 5% compound interest lost is now $11,500 or an additional $120.00 per month to be added on your $200/mo, costing ~$320 per month for 8 years. Which almost sounds like another car payment (or an addition to one's car payment to go marginally faster).
I used the following calculator if your interested http://moneytipcentral.com/how-much-is-100-worth-in-the-future
While I'm definitely not in any position to challenge your logic (having spent a bunch of $$$$ myself) it did occur to me that
Jimmy makes a valid point in evaluating your goals before the check is due.
CPI Inflation calculates your $20,000 in 2008 has the same buying power as $21,978.24 in 2015 (and thus a loss of $1,978.24) which isn't too bad.
But if you took that same $20,000 in 2008 and invested it in the stock market (even during its ups/downs) with 8 years of growth
and an average of 10% your net would be $42,871.78 with compound interest (LOL). Figuring 5% and the value becomes $29,549.11.
Or the $2,000 from inflation + $9,000 from 5% compound interest lost is now $11,500 or an additional $120.00 per month to be added on your $200/mo, costing ~$320 per month for 8 years. Which almost sounds like another car payment (or an addition to one's car payment to go marginally faster).
I used the following calculator if your interested http://moneytipcentral.com/how-much-is-100-worth-in-the-future
Don W.
Stab it and steer it
Re: What do you think it would cost to build a reliable 11 second Sy.
You're correct. It's the kind of decision we make all the time. If we do nothing but invest all the money we'd be wealthy. And nothing to show for it except a big bank bank account. Where's the fun in that? I've run the gamut from almost bankrupt to where I am today with more than few ups and downs along the way.
Even the grandkids are grown, I'm not getting any younger. I could always own a boat...:rotf: I'm having a great time. I look forward to every race day. Helps to keep this old fart going. It's fun when people ask what I do and I say I drag race, they're kind speechless for a moment. You do what??
I think we're all good examples of the old saying "The only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys."
You're correct. It's the kind of decision we make all the time. If we do nothing but invest all the money we'd be wealthy. And nothing to show for it except a big bank bank account. Where's the fun in that? I've run the gamut from almost bankrupt to where I am today with more than few ups and downs along the way.
Even the grandkids are grown, I'm not getting any younger. I could always own a boat...:rotf: I'm having a great time. I look forward to every race day. Helps to keep this old fart going. It's fun when people ask what I do and I say I drag race, they're kind speechless for a moment. You do what??
I think we're all good examples of the old saying "The only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys."
Re: What do you think it would cost to build a reliable 11 second Sy.
You are as old as you feel
You are as old as you feel
red typhoon
Member
Re: What do you think it would cost to build a reliable 11 second Sy.
it not how much money you spend but how wise you spend it.:tup:but I would said with 20 thousand if more then enough.:2cents:
it not how much money you spend but how wise you spend it.:tup:but I would said with 20 thousand if more then enough.:2cents:
Syclone0565
CustomMulticades.com
Re: What do you think it would cost to build a reliable 11 second Sy.
You just jinxed yourself. You used the word reliable and Syclone in the same sentence.
Less than 5K will put any Syclone in the 11's easy and as reliable as you can make one.
You just jinxed yourself. You used the word reliable and Syclone in the same sentence.
Less than 5K will put any Syclone in the 11's easy and as reliable as you can make one.
Jimmy
Banned
Re: What do you think it would cost to build a reliable 11 second Sy.
I
You are my hero.Stuff is just stuff,but having unique experiences like almost passing out and your brain almost exploding is something that very few ppl ever get to experience.
It cost X? Who gives a ****? :dunno:
It's almost like having as much fun as having a 55 gallon drum full of big ole titties. That's priceless.
I
You are my hero.Stuff is just stuff,but having unique experiences like almost passing out and your brain almost exploding is something that very few ppl ever get to experience.
It cost X? Who gives a ****? :dunno:
It's almost like having as much fun as having a 55 gallon drum full of big ole titties. That's priceless.
randy merritt
Donating Member
Re: What do you think it would cost to build a reliable 11 second Sy.
X2, X3 and X4. I could not agree more. Some people piss money away on gambling, some on hunting, some on fishing, some on drugs, etc, etc. I choose to piss money away on things that I have fun doing.
Having said that, I have the disposable income to piss away on my truck. The important things are taken care of first (family, bills, etc.).
X2, X3 and X4. I could not agree more. Some people piss money away on gambling, some on hunting, some on fishing, some on drugs, etc, etc. I choose to piss money away on things that I have fun doing.
Having said that, I have the disposable income to piss away on my truck. The important things are taken care of first (family, bills, etc.).
Norm
Donating Member
Re: What do you think it would cost to build a reliable 11 second Sy.
Yep, one nice thing about getting older is the house and all the toys are paid off. No worries about money. Just finding smarter ways to spend money on the fun factor.
Yep, one nice thing about getting older is the house and all the toys are paid off. No worries about money. Just finding smarter ways to spend money on the fun factor.