2 bar or 3 bar?

[SteveD]

Help me out all, I am wondering what 2 bar or 3 bar means? I have heard a lot of talk about this. As some of you may know I am trying to gain knowledge so this spring I can become one of you, and own a Ty! Please fill me in, I am very intrested in learning what they do and why one would have one or the other.

Thanks again, and sorry if I continue to ask what seems to be simple to most.
Steve

 

[cameronsclone]

Re: 2 bar or 3 bar?

2 and 3 bar is basically another way of saying psi for boost, but is commonly used to designate map sensors that can read max 2 or 3 bar or chips that can be boosted up to whatever bar. 1 bar=no boost 2bar=max 14.7psi 3bar=like 29.4 psi I think?
This may help you, go down to about half of the page where it says 2 and 3 bar chips.
http://www.sportmachines.com/maintenance/beginner.php

 

[SteveD]

Re: 2 bar or 3 bar?

So it sounds like most everyone should have a 3bar chip. Am I right to think so, even if your Sy/Ty is stock? What is normal boost on these rides? Or should I ask what max is at stock? I have heard a lot about 15pds, maybe because of the 2bar system?

When you change to a 3 bar, is there any must mods to go with it? Or, is it the opposite? Like, changing your fuel pump or turbo, and then needing to change to a 3bar?

I can't wait, thanks!
Steve

 

[Tooky]

Re: 2 bar or 3 bar?

Steve, have you spent some time using the Search? All of this has been covered at least a dozen times. www.syty.org, www.sytyauthority.net, www.sportmachines.com etc. also have a good amount of beginner / Frequently Asked Questions, if you haven't visited them before..

 

[SteveD]

Re: 2 bar or 3 bar?

I have spent time using the search, but I admit, I could use it more. I am sure most everything has been covered, that is what this site is for. I appreciate the other links, I will check them out. Sorry, if I am not the first person to ask some questions all, but I want to learn. If I can't find the answer, or think I am asking it differntly, I will ask.

The more help I get now, the better I will be able to help later. As always, thanks to you all.

Steve

 

[Aeroking]

Re: 2 bar or 3 bar?

stock trucks are setup on a 2bar system. The Stock MAP sensor are 2 bar maps. So they can read boost from 0psi to 14.7psi (most people just round up and say 15psi). The stock chip is a 2 bar chip, so the MAP can only read up to 15psi, and the chip is only configured for 15psi. If your boost rises above that, then the chip cannot read how much the truck is boosting, and therefore, cannot add sufficient fuel.

If you chose to run your truck at a higher boost level than 14.7psi. Then a 3 bar combo is what you need. The 3 bar MAP will allow the ECM to read boost from 0psi to 29.4psi. And a 3 bar chip will be calibrated likewise to adjust fuel/timing up to 29.4psi.

:tup:

 

[Foot Performance]

Re: 2 bar or 3 bar?

2 bar will monitor 15 inches of vacuum and 15 psi of boost

3 bar will monitor 30inches of vacuum (Ibelieve) and 30 psi of boost (have to have a chip or somthing of that nature to run a 3bar map sensor)

 

[turbodig]

Re: 2 bar or 3 bar?

2 bar will monitor 15 inches of vacuum and 15 psi of boost

3 bar will monitor 30inches of vacuum (Ibelieve) and 30 psi of boost (have to have a chip or somthing of that nature to run a 3bar map sensor)

Not quite.

A MAP sensor (Manifold Absolute Pressure) measures air pressure from a 0 reference.

For an example:

"normal" atmospheric pressure is around 100kpa (~14.7pisa). This varies with altitude and daily barometer, but it's close enough for an example.

A 2 Bar sensor can measure from 0-200 kpa. Given the "normal" pressure of 100 kpa,
it can measure 100 kpa of boost, and 100 kpa of vacuum. (~14.5 psi, 29.53 inches vacuum)

A 3 bar sensor measures from 0-300kpa. Given the normal 100 kpa atmosphere, this means it can measure 200 kpa of boost (29.006 psi) and 100 kpa vacuum (25.93 inches).

The chip you're running must know which sensor you're running, in order to operate properly. A 2bar sensor won't work with a 3 bar chip, and a 3 bar sensor won't work with a 2 bar chip.

Brian Green + Todd Austinson offered the first 3 bar-enabled chip (the early 10-n-1), back in the mid-late 90s. The Ultimate chip boxes followed, also a 3bar.

Anybody currently running a 3 bar chip (don't care who makes/sells it) is using something based off those bins. The only exception to this are a few that I have floating around, and the code59 stuff.

The ATR,Conley,KB, Hypertech,JET,Z-industries were all 2-bar cals.

 

[artisticent]

Re: 2 bar or 3 bar?

This is quite interesting, being a new sy owner myself I feel like I am running too much boost and not enough fuel. I have the pitbul chip,a AFPR and an a/a intercooler set up. When my piping had a small leak and was not producing full boost the truck under boost was a rocket but now after fixing it all, it seems like it has a lag. I wonder if the chip does not read past 14.7 yet I am producing higher boost. The stock gauge reads about 14 but I hear they are not too accurate..
Nathan

 

[Norm]

Re: 2 bar or 3 bar?

interesting info, i've done a few searches on the subject and it's good to see info brought up once in a while, it seems that even though it's been discussed before ,there's always a bit of new info ( or another opinion) that helps .

 

[Flyin Ryan]

Re: 2 bar or 3 bar?

This is quite interesting, being a new sy owner myself I feel like I am running too much boost and not enough fuel. I have the pitbul chip,a AFPR and an a/a intercooler set up. When my piping had a small leak and was not producing full boost the truck under boost was a rocket but now after fixing it all, it seems like it has a lag. I wonder if the chip does not read past 14.7 yet I am producing higher boost. The stock gauge reads about 14 but I hear they are not too accurate..
Nathan

You have to remember the pitbull chips were on the richer side of things so your tune may be either pig rich which is robing power or your getting knock that's causing the chip to pull timing.. eitherway if your missing power you should hook up with a local syty owner who has datamaster so you can see what's going on with your truck before getting in it again.

Also do not go by the stock boost gauge at all.. you need to get a better boost gauge to see what your really putting out.

 

[Aeroking]

Re: 2 bar or 3 bar?

i also have the pitbull chip and its pretty overboost friendly. just a few pounds though.

ditto, the first thing you gotta do is get an aftermarket boost gauge, they're cheap, easy to install. my dash gauge is always 5~8psi less then my Autometer gauge.

chances are if your dash is reading 14, your probably pretty far past 15psi.

 

[blk00z28]

Re: 2 bar or 3 bar?

Not quite.

A MAP sensor (Manifold Absolute Pressure) measures air pressure from a 0 reference.

For an example:

"normal" atmospheric pressure is around 100kpa (~14.7pisa). This varies with altitude and daily barometer, but it's close enough for an example.

A 2 Bar sensor can measure from 0-200 kpa. Given the "normal" pressure of 100 kpa,
it can measure 100 kpa of boost, and 100 kpa of vacuum. (~14.5 psi, 29.53 inches vacuum)

A 3 bar sensor measures from 0-300kpa. Given the normal 100 kpa atmosphere, this means it can measure 200 kpa of boost (29.006 psi) and 100 kpa vacuum (25.93 inches).

The chip you're running must know which sensor you're running, in order to operate properly. A 2bar sensor won't work with a 3 bar chip, and a 3 bar sensor won't work with a 2 bar chip.

Brian Green + Todd Austinson offered the first 3 bar-enabled chip (the early 10-n-1), back in the mid-late 90s. The Ultimate chip boxes followed, also a 3bar.

Anybody currently running a 3 bar chip (don't care who makes/sells it) is using something based off those bins. The only exception to this are a few that I have floating around, and the code59 stuff.

The ATR,Conley,KB, Hypertech,JET,Z-industries were all 2-bar cals.

Going with the 3bar map, with a 3bar chip. Would you have to get a 4 bar chip to run with a 4 bar map. Or can you modify a 3 bar to work with a 4 bar map?

 

[turbodig]

Re: 2 bar or 3 bar?

Going with the 3bar map, with a 3bar chip. Would you have to get a 4 bar chip to run with a 4 bar map. Or can you modify a 3 bar to work with a 4 bar map?

Nobody's currently offering a 4 bar chip for the stock ECU. (That I'm aware of)

Bottom line here... anybody with a build big enough to run 30 psi + , is probably going to be considering an aftermarket ECU.

Furthermore, you can still run 30 psi + with a 3 bar... you'd just have to fuel it heavier on the last available cell in the fuel map.

You'd need to be talking 35-40 psi to make a 4 bar worthwhile.

 

[turbodig]

Re: 2 bar or 3 bar?

This is quite interesting, being a new sy owner myself I feel like I am running too much boost and not enough fuel. I have the pitbul chip,a AFPR and an a/a intercooler set up. When my piping had a small leak and was not producing full boost the truck under boost was a rocket but now after fixing it all, it seems like it has a lag. I wonder if the chip does not read past 14.7 yet I am producing higher boost. The stock gauge reads about 14 but I hear they are not too accurate..
Nathan

As others have said, you need a different boost gauge.

While a stock 2 bar chip won't provide an accurate reading past 14.7, that doesn't mean that fuel ran out there. In fact, there were quite a few chips that were fueled for 18-20 psi. The people doing chips at the time would simply add more fuel to the last point in the fuel map, ( 200 KPA), and that would be in effect for boost levels from 14.7 and up. It would be pretty rich at 14.7 psi, but would level out to a decent AFR after that.

The reality of the matter is that a truck that has a wastegate set for 20 PSI will spend very little time at 14.7 psi, unless you happen to be launching at that boost level.

The 2 bar chips were compromises with the available technology at the time. The Pitbull is actually a quite good street driver chip, if you don't have many (any) mods. The Conley was ok, as well. The others, I wouldn't bother with... did more harm than good.

 

[syclonekid43]

Re: 2 bar or 3 bar?

stupid question, cause i cant find it. i have an aftermarket 3 bar someone gave me. if i run a 3bar. will there be a problem. or will the computer still see it as a 2bar? some odd reason i think my map is no good. i dont want to buy a 2bar when i have plans in the future to run a 3bar. and seeing i have one i hope i can save money

 

[SY2932]

Re: 2 bar or 3 bar?

stupid question, cause i cant find it. i have an aftermarket 3 bar someone gave me. if i run a 3bar. will there be a problem. or will the computer still see it as a 2bar? some odd reason i think my map is no good. i dont want to buy a 2bar when i have plans in the future to run a 3bar. and seeing i have one i hope i can save money

It's NEVER a good idea to give the ECM bogus information. Especially if it's something as vital as the MAP sensor is. A MAP sensor is a lot cheaper than another motor

...

 

[turbodig]

Re: 2 bar or 3 bar?

Putting it another way...

A 3 bar sensor in a code base written for 2 bar, will read ~ 130 kpa when it's really at 200.
In other words you get fueling for 7 psi when you really had 14+. Not a good thing to do.

It'll start and run, just really poorly.