alky injection safety net

[Buster]

I'm looking for some ideas on how to build a safety net for my alky kit. I'm relying heavily on the alky for fuel, if the pump goes so does the motor. This is the type of system I want to use, so upgrading to a better fuel system is not an option. I'm sold on the methanol.

Anyways, thinking out loud here. Install a back up pump, which is set to operate at the same boost levels as my main pump, but have it wired to a second Hobbs switches which activates only upon a main pump failure. Basically just a Hobbs switch on the output of the main pump, if pressure drops below 60-70 psi, the second pump kicks in. Now this sounds like an awfully big mess, but could work.

Now I've thought of other ideas, like pulling boost down, but the problem is even at 15 psi, my motors still toast because of the lean calibration. Unless I don't start using alky til 16 psi, then my 15 psi calibration would have enough fuel without the alky, I still don't like the idea.

Maybe just some type of fuel cut off, or spark cut (maybe MSD gadget) would work better. If you have an idea, I'd like to hear it.

 

[smeagol]

Do you use the computer for boost control ?

 

[leroy]

Aquamist makes flow monitors that can be tied to external boost control. The flow monitor could probably also be tied to a fuel cut.

Jim

 

[Buster]

Right now I'm not using the computer for boost control, but that could be fixed up easily enough. I could use the pressure switch built right in the shurflo to trigger boost somehow. Any ideas?

 

[smeagol]

The new Aquamist stuff is really trick. Accumulators are nice.

The pressure switch after the pump is a nice one... but again, if the line after that switch has an issue anywhere, the switch might tell you good, when the motor ain't getting alky.

I was thinking a serious boost pullback (like back to base boost) if there is > X degrees of knock. This is a good idea on most chips, but could be carried out in an extreme fashion on custom/personal programs.

 

[Buster]

We tied (18:41). I like the idea but every time the knock sensor goes off pulling to base boost would drive me freaking nut, rather just let it blow ,not really, well maybe.

 

[100in6]

hey mark

nothin like race fuel. once you got it in the tank no worry, no stress, more power, and if you use enough of it... no money.

les

 

[Buster]

hey mark

nothin like race fuel. once you got it in the tank no worry, no stress, more power, and if you use enough of it... no money.

les

I do run race gas, but I've seen power gained with the addition of methanol. Last year running a very small amount we gained 2 mph, from 120 to 122, that was all out tweaked to the Max with stock L35s.

This year I'm planning on running a bunch of methanol, and making more power. I see (forecast) power gains in the range of 15-20% just by substituting in some meth, and pulling some 110 out. This is why I think its worth the risk, actually it's no more risky than using a double pump in tank, one fails your motors toast.


Here's a clip from a post aem forum...........

JC, all you said is correct. Except you said 19000 BTU/gal and 9800 BTU/gal. You made a little typo. It's 19000 Btu/lb and 9800 Btu/lb. Mass, not volume. Anyway.......

Methanol makes more power party due to the charge air cooling. However, you are just leaving out the second part of the equation. The specific energy of methanol, the maximum amount of BTUs that can be created with a given mass air flow, is greater than gasoline.

Let's see why. Now keep in mind the following results DO NOT take into account charge air cooling. That benefit is left out. These are based on a static mass air flow. I'll use your figures for BTU/lb.

At stoich (14.7 vs 6.45):

19000/14.7=1292 BTU/lb for gasoline
9800/6.45=1519 BTU/lb for methanol

1519/1292=1.176 or 17.6% more BTUs are created by a stoich mixture of methanol vs gasoline.

Ah....but it gets better. Methanol has far better flammability limits. Which means it continues creating power, in relatively richer mixtures than gasoline.

Gasoline won't make any more power past 12:1, which is 22.5% richer than stoich. That's pretty much universally agreed on. We can agree on that yes?

Methanol makes maximum power at 5:1, which is 30% richer than stoich. Donald Wang said 4:1, but that may be optimistic, so I'm using a conservative figure.

19000/12=1583 BTU/lb
9800/5=1960 BTU/lb

1960/1583=1.238 or 23.8% more power

There you go. That's why.

So it's 23.8% more power, before you even count the charge air cooling, which drops my temps from 80F to 20F or lower. That's about 15% increase in charge air density right there, on top of the 23.8% increase in chemical power. I will admit the 23.8% figure has to be corrected for the ratio of power created by gas vs methanol. 23.8% gain is assuming 100% methanolo fueling, which isn't the case with my injection kit.

All the while you have reduced peak cylinder pressures and temperatures, which makes things easier on the pistons, rods, crank, valves, turbine, etc.

The stuff is AWESOME. How else can I say it?
_________________
Derek OBanion
anarkey@derekdevises.com

 

[100in6]

have you been able to make more power on my L35's. I thought they really looked good inside

les

 

[Buster]

have you been able to make more power on my L35's. I thought they really looked good inside

les

Yes they are making very good power. On Datamaster its running mid 11's with the lowest boost setting I can get, 13.7-14.3 psi. Once I get it all dialed in I wanta see low 11's with 13-14 psi, and mid 10's or better with 26+.

 

[UNIsackV6]

Meth is cool stuff but remember you're really relying on it at the higher boost levels so it sort of has to be a risk you're willing to take which it sounds like you are...but aside from the alky/meth and as far as the fuel pump goes I'm sold on the single pump set up I've seen and heard too many stories of that second pump going out and then you're running on one pump and quicker than you can say Sean Morris you're way lean and well you know what happens next :wink: My set up is a great example, granted my single Weldon is overkill even for my monster but just this past week I've had a fuel pressure problem where FP was dropping with boost instead of rising, motor would run out of fuel and shut down...no harm no foul even the plugs are fine, but what would have happened with a dual pump set up?? Who knows but I'd be willing to bet it would be a lot worse than the motor just shutting down...your idea on cutting boost below a certain predetermined fuel pressure is a great idea...good luck with the Meth, let us know how it works out 8)

 

[turbodig]

Re: alky injection safety net

I'm looking for some ideas on how to build a safety net for my alky kit. I'm relying heavily on the alky for fuel, if the pump goes so does the motor. This is the type of system I want to use, so upgrading to a better fuel system is not an option. I'm sold on the methanol.


Maybe just some type of fuel cut off, or spark cut (maybe MSD gadget) would work better. If you have an idea, I'd like to hear it.

Option #1

Why not use the ECMs knock retard boost cutoff? IE, over 5 degrees
of retard, and pull boost to the floor?

Option#2
A custom Alky pressure vs. spark correction table?


Option #3-

Use a Solenoid to control alky delivery. (Like a NOS Alky solenoid)
Hobbs #1 comes on at 1 psi, starts the pump.

Hobbs #2 (hafta get something alky rated) is in the line between the
pump and the solenoid, and senses pressure > 60. If it isn't, the hobbs
opens, which could trigger a boost solenoid operating in bypass mode,
and/or a relay for igntion cut. Also illuminates a light to tell you the pump
is on, but there's no pressure. (and therefore you should be getting off
the loud pedal)

Nice this about this setup, is that it lets you put the nozzles in the manifold
after the TB. (The solenoid shuts off in vacuum)


Actually a combination of #1 and #3 would be a good setup, if the one
system fails to detect, the other should catch it.

Later,
Dig
"We can dance if we want to, we can leave your friends behind..."

 

[Buster]

Re: alky injection safety net

I'm looking for some ideas on how to build a safety net for my alky kit. I'm relying heavily on the alky for fuel, if the pump goes so does the motor. This is the type of system I want to use, so upgrading to a better fuel system is not an option. I'm sold on the methanol.


Maybe just some type of fuel cut off, or spark cut (maybe MSD gadget) would work better. If you have an idea, I'd like to hear it.

Option #1

Why not use the ECMs knock retard boost cutoff? IE, over 5 degrees
of retard, and pull boost to the floor?

I should have read BG's post before replying. I didn't realize we could set our desired (or undesired) knock levels to pull boost. I was thinking it was an all or nothing type deal (sensor gets triggered and boost is gone) that would be hard to deal with, but at 5 degrees something's defiantly wrong. Ok back to computer controlled boost.

 

[Buster]

I'm now back on ECM controlled boost. Could I just splice into one of the wires running to the wastegate solenoid and run that to a Hobbs switch mounted right before the nozzles? This way you wouldn't get boost above your base until the system pressurize and trips the hobbs switch. Then use the knock retard option as a back source.

 

[turbodig]

I'm now back on ECM controlled boost. Could I just splice into one of the wires running to the wastegate solenoid and run that to a Hobbs switch mounted right before the nozzles? This way you wouldn't get boost above your base until the system pressurize and trips the hobbs switch. Then use the knock retard option as a back source.

Wire the hobbs in series in the 12v power line going to the boost solenoid.
That'll float the solenoid until the alky has pressure.

Again, a regular hobbs won't live with methanol very long... gotta find
something that likes alky. Mcmaster-Carr has stuff like that.

later,

Dig

 

[Buster]

I'm now back on ECM controlled boost. Could I just splice into one of the wires running to the wastegate solenoid and run that to a Hobbs switch mounted right before the nozzles? This way you wouldn't get boost above your base until the system pressurize and trips the hobbs switch. Then use the knock retard option as a back source.

Wire the hobbs in series in the 12v power line going to the boost solenoid.
That'll float the solenoid until the alky has pressure.

Again, a regular hobbs won't live with methanol very long... gotta find
something that likes alky. Mcmaster-Carr has stuff like that.

later,

Dig

Cool. I'm thinking this will work perfect, as long as there's not major lag.

BTW: Was this for me?

"We can dance if we want to, we can leave your friends behind..."

 

[Buster]

Well that backfired. Damn computers.