Building a SyTy from scratch?

[InvisiBill]

I own a Syclone and an S-10 4x4. I've read two years worth of "Can I duct tape a Syclone turbo to my S-10 and make it run 11's?" questions. I know all that stuff...

There seem to be a lot of "barely adequate" parts that GM used on SyTy's, which get upgraded. I got thinking about starting from scratch with the upgrade stuff instead of stock. You'd still have to get SyTy-spec stuff, I know. But rather than trying to get a donor truck and do a transplant, just buy upgraded stuff to begin with. Get a McCoy motor, a PTE turbo and downpipe, ATR headers, an air-air IC, and a Hartman tranny (those are just examples, not specific plans or recommendations).

That seems to cover most of the SyTy-specific stuff right there, without actually having to get any actual SyTy parts. If you wanted to use the stock SyTy setup, I suppose you'd need the upper and lower intake still (see http://www.arautosports.com/TTcomplete.jpg for another option =) ). You'd need the ECM, which was used in a few other vehicles, right? Wiring harness? The transfer case was used in other vehicles as well. I know there are some different shaft options or something, but it seems like it'd be even easier to match things up if you were building the whole drivetrain from scratch instead of trying to transplant parts into an existing system. Would a regular 4x4 transfer case be able to handle that power?

Is there anything major I'm missing? I live in Hickville, and every time I pass a dirt road I think about how cool it'd be to have an old PoS-10 with 300 turbocharged AWD hp to tear around in. I realize that it wouldn't be cheap and I don't personally have the knowledge to do it, but it seemed like another logical path you could take...

 

[Hu Ryde]

I would rather have someof that upgraded stuff in the Sy, not a PoS-10. But hey just my opinion so it's not worth too much, I think the going rate is $.02. Have fun doing it though if you decide.

 

[InvisiBill]

I don't have any plans of doing this anytime soon. Maybe after I replace everything on the Sy and get it repainted, and get my museum-quality low-mileage Sy to put in storage and only look at. =)

But I would love to have the power of a Sy in something that I basically didn't care about. Every time I park somewhere, I worry about door dings. Every time I drive on these crappy Michigan roads, I worry that something will happen. I always wonder just how crappy that other driver is, and if the Sy will end up paying for it. I'd love to do donuts in the gravel (and everywhere else too) and take it to the dunes at Silver Lake and just generally have a blast in it.

Now that I think about it, I suppose it probably would be quite a bit more expensive to do it that way, and yes, it would be cooler to have all that stuff in the Sy. It just seems like the first step in every conversion is "Buy a donor SyTy.", and I got thinking that it would be possible with very few actual donor items, and you could avoid some of the common problems at the same time. More just thinking out loud than anything, I guess...

 

[smeagol]

I've had these same sentiments before. Think of a 10 second truck project... what are you keeping that is Syty specific ?

I had a completely built up motor
Retained syty intake setup
Aftermarket turbo, intercooler, exhaust
Upgraded tranny & converter
upgraded propshaft
upgraded fuel system
used aftermarket ECM (could use aftermarket or go to stock syty ECM)


So, start out with a 4x4 late model S series truck, get the AWD transfercase (not hard to find, or go with a newer style, better one).
Build up a 4.3
buy the bolt ons you need
buy ECM of your choice

hardest things to come by is a Syty intake & fuel rail

You'd have a very unique vehicle, and if you built on a newer style truck, something that was only a couple years old rather than 9+ years old.

Heck, while you are talking about upgrades, why not use an LS1 or Gen III small block in that buildup? You could get great mileage, tons of bolt ons available, awesome ignition. Hell, let's go all the way (it's my dream damnit) and go with a 4L80E transmission. You could use a 6.0L truck PCM and control the tranny & engine with that, and have the option of reprogramming it with LS1 edit.

I am stupid.

 

[heavy breather]

Why not just by a vortec powered S-10 4X4 and put on a big turbo. Replace whatever breaks when it breaks and beat the livin $h*t out of it. You could have awd when you want and 2wd for smokey redlight launches. Plus you could get one fairly cheap, and a turbo and A2A install would be dirt cheap. I have mapped one out for my Dad's Z71 for less than $1500. :drinking:
Us Ky hillbillies like to go fast when were in the mud, barefoot, gettin it on with our sisters.

 

[smeagol]

Cuz when it breaks it will take out a lot. Pistons would be the first to go (and it wouldn't take much) destroying the rods/block/crank possibly. That's how it happened in the motor in my first Syclone (before I owned it).

There is no fuel system to support the newer motors (pretty much all you can do at this point is raise/lower fuel pressure... great), so that means you are almost for sure going to detonate.

It is still a POS 4.3 motor that is on the way out. Weak power, horrible mileage, horrible ignition.

 

[GM TURBO]

I heard a rumor about a Braphoon wanting to spend some time on Michigan roads

 

[tloof]

Funny that this subject was brought up, because that is essentially just what I am building, an A4WD V-8 powered 4x4 S10 extended cab truck. I chose a pristine '93 4x4 model to do this conversion on (considerably cheaper than a Syclone, and much more useful due to the extended cab). I considered adding aftermarket fiberglass Syclone body cladding on it (I sure do love the look of a Syclone!!), but decided it was just an expensive pain in the ass to install, and just makes the vehicle a big THEFT target.

I am using the more modern and efficient NP8 auto 4WD transfer case from a full size Yukon with the V-8 4L60E auto trans ('99 model), which allows running the truck in 2WD for greater fuel efficiency. It also allows low range 4WD gearing for off road use (if ever desired) by lifting the truck back up to stock ride height. This gives the truck more utility than an expensive Syclone, but with the same handling abilities of the Syclone when using it around town. Of course I plan to use a built-up 406 ci V-8 that will be around 350-400 hp, and with a Vortech SC will net around 550-600 hp. This will allow much graeter fuel efficiency than either a special built turboed V-6 (like is normally run in the Syclone), or a radically cammed V-8 that is around 500-550 hp. It will also be slightly cheaper as well, and will have much more torque than a turboed V-6 will! With the auto 4WD transfer case I will literally get my cake and eat it as well, since I will get the AWD traction when needed, but 2WD efficiency when traction is available (or restored under acceleration).

The rest of the vehicle will use various aftermarket & stock later model S10 equipment. For example, an 8.5" rear end from a '00 model 4x4 truck with a rear sway bar setup from a '00 S10 Extreme truck, a floor shift unit & console from a '99 S10 Blazer, the gauge package from a 3.1 ABS Sunbird (with the 120 mph speedometer from a Turbo Sunbird installed in it) and a used Typhoon bezel & brackets, etc. It will also get an entire all leather interior from a '94 Bravada in it as well.

All in all, I will have a very stealthy auto 4WD V-8 powered excellent handling Syclone type truck (minus the expensive cladding) that will cost a total of about 10-11K in the end, and should outrun most of the Syclones out there, but still offer much greater utility than any Syclone (I will still be able to hual 1000 lb loads when I want to!!).

 

[muslhed]

I've dreamed of doing this as well. The reliability factor would be through the roof, if the motor is set up right. The other caviot would be the awesome V-8 rumble coming out from under the hood! Are you going to keep it fuel injected? Highly recommend.

 

[tloof]

I was originally hoping to keep it fuel injected, just to make the supercharger installation simpler, although I am not sure who can reprogram a factory GM VCM to work with the modified 406. I sure don't want to spend $3K+ to get a custom aftermarket FI & Ign controller that I have to program via a labtop computer. In my opinion it is not cost effective, and is juat a pain in the ass to program correctly. I may go with a Quadrajet carb installation (a computer controlled version that can adjust the fuel air ratio on the primaries) to simplify the whole mess, and build more HP in the process. The fuel savings of a fuel injection system generally take about 10 years to pay out, which basically is the effective live span of the engine. I don't see where it makes any sense in such a case, and the complexity just adds triple the hours to such an installation!!!

 

[BillC]

The stock SyTy ECM (1227749) will work with a V8. However, you'll have to do lots of custom chipping. But, if you're already familiar with chipping SyTys, it shouldn't be too hard.

 

[tloof]

No, the stock Sy/Ty ECM will not work for this combination. It requires a '98 up VCM from a full size truck that has the capability of a class 2 multiplex communication system in order to download the vehicle data information that the auto 4WD TCCM (transfer case control module) requires in order to operate. It also is required to operate the late style PWM (pulse width modulated) 4L60E auto transmission (the Sy/Ty's use a non-computer controlled 700R4 auto transmission). That is the only curse of using the later style auto 4WD transfer case, you are forced to wire up ALOT of wiring using a VCM from such a vehicle (and that includes a passlock module to neutralize the theft prevention system).

 

[BillC]

No, the stock Sy/Ty ECM will not work for this combination. It requires a '98 up VCM from a full size truck that has the capability of a class 2 multiplex communication system in order to download the vehicle data information that the auto 4WD TCCM (transfer case control module) requires in order to operate. It also is required to operate the late style PWM (pulse width modulated) 4L60E auto transmission (the Sy/Ty's use a non-computer controlled 700R4 auto transmission). That is the only curse of using the later style auto 4WD transfer case, you are forced to wire up ALOT of wiring using a VCM from such a vehicle (and that includes a passlock module to neutralize the theft prevention system).

Then you should be more $!*% clear in your posts. ::steamer: Your previous post ONLY talked about running the engine, and THE SYTY ECM WILL WORK! You didn't say anything about running the transmission. And guess what, you can get an aftermarket controller for the tranny, and the SyTy ECM will STILL WORK FOR THE ENGINE! All you asked about was finding someone to reprogram a GM engine computer to work with your chosen engine, and the SyTy ECM is readily reprogrammable -- you can even do it yourself.

If you put a carburetor on your engine, guess what? You'll STILL HAVE TO GET AN AFTERMARKET TRANNY CONTROLLER. If you can't find an aftermarket tranny controller to run the transfer case, then you'll have to choose between the transfer case or the supercharger. You can't have it both ways.

Good luck trying to find someone to reprogram your OBDII VCM -- even if you can find someone, converting a normally-aspirated computer into a forced-induction computer is extremely difficult (to do it correctly, not a half-assed ricer job). And, as far as I know, GM didn't make any '98-or-later, forced-induction, gasoline-powered trucks with electronic trannies and transfer cases from which to steal a computer. So you're either going to have to cobble together lots of different controllers or go find another project.

BTW, this is the SYCLONE and TYPHOON bulletin board, not the Pull-Random-Parts-From-The-Junkyard-To-Build-A-Frankenstein-Vehicle-And-Try-To-Get-It-To-Run board. We're all interested in hearing about the possibilities of different projects, but you have to expect the advice from this board to have a certain bias. If you don't like what you hear, go bother someone who needs it, like a Mustang board.

 

[smeagol]

YEAH Bill! Let 'em have it... vent those angry thoughts


tloof, i think yer project is interesting, but I think that you are making it a lot more complicated than it needs to be..but that's just me... peeps like us make the world go round, and if it makes yer boat fly, that's cool.


I don't understand the need to have all the high tech, computer controlled stuff, then you'd turn around and use a carb setup..?

 

[tloof]

Gee BillC, what got up your A...

I wasn't the one who brought up the subject of building a Sy/Ty or quasi Sy/Ty from scratch. I only saw this subject and then mentioned that my project was similar. Also, if you had read my first post carefully you would have seen that I was planning the use of a 4L60E with the auto 4WD transfer case, which would require a special controller; and by the way, you can still use the original GM VCM to control the auto trans while using a carburetor. All that you have to do is wire up a throttle position sensor on the carb, add a coolant temp sensor input, MAP sensor input, brake switch input, and engine speed input (via the ign. module) to the VCM, and the 13 transmission control wires and it will operate as a stand alone transmission controller (and will also supply the download VIN data required to operate the TCCM (transfer case control module).

Now you may have a point that the Sy/Ty ECM can operate the engine by itself, but I was hoping that the '99 full size truck VCM could be reprogrammed to work on a supercharged Vortec V-8 so that I didn't have to wire up and run two ECM's.

Also, I don't really want to run a carb setup, but if a special expensive controller + larger injectors, etc. is required then the carb may well be way cheaper in the long run! By the way, Vortech does have a supercharger setup for a carb now by using a pressurized box, they say it works very well.

 

[BillC]

tloof -- Think about it. If you can rig up the VCM to work as a tranny/t-case controller with the carburetor running the engine, then you can also rig it up to work with the SyTy ECM running the engine. You won't get the benefit of only having one computer box, but at least you'd still be fuel injected and able to tune the computer for the engine. You should also be able to do it for relatively cheap (a used ECM can be had for less than $50).

I'm aware of the Vortech carb box. If you really want to go to all the effort of hooking up a computer-controlled tranny and a computer-controlled transfer case, and then use a carburetor on the engine, go right ahead. However, that's kinda like getting Fred Flintstone to operate your Cray supercomputer.

You asked for suggestions for keeping the fuel injection. I gave you a valid suggestion and you stomped on it. You don't like my response? Perhaps you should think about your own responses first.

 

[tloof]

I apologize for stomping on your Sy/Ty ECU suggestion. I certainly would prefer to go with fuel injection, but I don't believe that it is as simple and inexpensive as you might think. For example, the stock Vortec V-8 injectors & intake manifold (and pump as well), will most likely NOT be able to supply the demand required (i don't know for sure, but I suspect that they will have to be changed out). This means a pricey aftermarket intake manifold with integral injector bosses & new individual injectors (there is no higher flow rate stock type Vortec V-8 injector that I know of available). This in turn will necessitate a new custom wiring harness (more $ and time). My hope was that the stock VCM could be reprogrammed to allow a longer injection time when the MAF sensor flow rate increased, in order to supply the fuel demand needs to the stock Vortec V-8 injectors. This would then eliminate the need for two separate ECU's and the second custom wiring harness. This way I could use a stock '98 up 4.3 V-6 S10 engine harness, which would only need 8 wires added to it to operate the Vortec V-8. It would also support the later version NP8 auto 4WD transfer case and 4L60E auto trans.

If all of the injector components and ECU have to be changed out, then the carb version using a computer controlled Quadrajet carb (the version that has a very simple ECU that controls the air/fuel ratio of the primaries, with the secondaries still using jets) may well be a much simpler and considerably cheaper solution in the end. It is not as elaborate a solution as the fuel injection, but it will work better than you may think. Yes, the auto 4WD transfer case & 4L60E auto trans does add quite a bit to the complexity of this swap, but the price for this setup that will give increased efficiency & flexibility has been surprisingly low (only $800 total).

By the way, Lees High Tech Trucks has pointed me to a company that can reprogram the stock VCM to do just what I need. I will check into it soon and give an update on the result.

 

[BillC]

Alright, you've puzzled me here. You said:

For example, the stock Vortec V-8 injectors & intake manifold (and pump as well), will most likely NOT be able to supply the demand required (i don't know for sure, but I suspect that they will have to be changed out).

Then you say

My hope was that the stock VCM could be reprogrammed to allow a longer injection time when the MAF sensor flow rate increased, in order to supply the fuel demand needs to the stock Vortec V-8 injectors.

If the stock injectors and intake are incapable of supplying what the engine requires, then how can reprogramming the VCM make any difference? Once the injectors get maxed out, extending the injection time won't change the amount of fuel delivered. So, it sounds like you'd have to replace the injectors anyway. Unfortunately, you point out that:

(there is no higher flow rate stock type Vortec V-8 injector that I know of available)

So it sounds like you won't be able to use the Vortec injectors at all, and possibly the intake, for your project.

Are you really stuck on using the Vortec intake? If you want multi-port injection without paying for a "pricey aftermarket intake manifold ", it might be easier/cheaper to go look for a Corvette/Camaro TPI intake from a junkyard. That would get you an intake, injectors, fuel rail, FPR and maybe a wiring harness. Might take a little effort to get the intake to fit the Vortec heads, but shouldn't be any worse than getting a SyTy intake to fit Vortec V-6 heads. I am, of course, assuming you want to keep the Vortec heads -- you could also just get the heads that go with the TPI intake, and then everything should bolt up.

My opinion of the Vortech carb box is that it's a crutch to allow hotrodders and other automotive luddites to avoid stepping up to fuel injection for as long as possible. If you want to use it, go right ahead, just don't be surprised by the lack of interest here in such old-tech stuff

 

[tloof]

I talked to Ed Wright at Fastchips, and he indicated that it would be no problem to flash program the GM VCM for any engine combination (be it 350, 383, 406, 427 ci, etc.). He says that I can't get too wild on the cam though, but the stock injection system will handle a 383 or 406 ci Vortec conversion with a ZZ4 cam & alum fast burn heads. He also says the Vortech supercharger can be used on this combo as long as an FMU is used to increase fuel pressure in relation to the manifold boost pressure.

It appears that my project is a go with the single '99 full size 4x4 VCM that I have!!

By the way, the cost of flash reprogramming is only $350.