Distrib. Being Off

[SeattleSy#1255]

I've read a bit about the "distrib. being a tooth or two off" and I am thinking perhaps this is my problem. Does that happen when you push down on the distrib. when it is loose and you can feel it "grab" sorta.

What I need to know is how to get it back on right and "toothed" correctly, although i'm not sure what i'm asking exactly.

Any help on this would be great. I'm having major issues with timing and am wondering if this could be it.

thanks

 

[Christian Dionne]

It does not matter at all where the distributor is facing as long as the timing is 0 with the tan wire disconnected. Some people are worried where the number 1 plug is, but it really does not make any difference, except maybe plug wire lengths.

 

[SeattleSy#1255]

let me ask this then:

why does my timing bounce all around with tan wire unplugged and me holding the distrib. so engine idle doesn't move it slightly on accident? Its to the point i got some "clancking" as if a cylinder is hitting/rising above TDC but I don't know.

ok, i have a question here....what i did was time it to 0* with tan wire off...truck ran great and even ideled better...i took it out for a spin and eased into it and with about 14lbs of boost truck just lost power check engine light came on and next thing i know i have zero oil pressure according to my stock gauge...i know they are not accurate, but it at least worked somewhat...now its at zero. I took it back home, unplugged tan wire and timing is wayyyyyyyyyyy off. I made sure the bolt was tightened and nothing moved and it was tight. I don't know what happened here?

at this point i have no oil pressure supposidly and when i time it to zero * the truck runs horribly and i'm now getting a clanking noise that wasn't there. All i can guess is the either i really don't have any oil pressue and its metal to metal in there or timing is so far off, even though it says its not, that a piston is traveling past TDC and hitting up top?

could the oil pump have been killed or something here? what happened to the timing and why won't it hold? I'm fearing the worse now.

 

[Sy769]

The first problem is figuring out if you have oil pressure. I don't know how far you drove it with the gauge on zero but it really takes no time to ruin the bearings.

The iginition timing has nothing to do with the pistons journey up and down the cylinder. The only reason a piston will go anywhere outside its normal stroke is a mechanical failure.

Did you remove the distributor or just loosen the holddown and turn it?

 

[93ty475]

let me ask this then:

why does my timing bounce all around with tan wire unplugged and me holding the distrib. so engine idle doesn't move it slightly on accident? Its to the point i got some "clancking" as if a cylinder is hitting/rising above TDC but I don't know.

ok, i have a question here....what i did was time it to 0* with tan wire off...truck ran great and even ideled better...i took it out for a spin and eased into it and with about 14lbs of boost truck just lost power check engine light came on and next thing i know i have zero oil pressure according to my stock gauge...i know they are not accurate, but it at least worked somewhat...now its at zero. I took it back home, unplugged tan wire and timing is wayyyyyyyyyyy off. I made sure the bolt was tightened and nothing moved and it was tight. I don't know what happened here?

at this point i have no oil pressure supposidly and when i time it to zero * the truck runs horribly and i'm not getting a clanking noise that wasn't there. All i can guess is the either i really don't have any oil pressue and its metal to metal in there or timing is so far off, even though it says its not, that a piston is traveling past TDC and hitting up top?

could the oil pump have been killed or something here? what happened to the timing and why won't it hold? I'm fearing the worse now.

sounds like a combination of problems...about that clanking sound that you hear, is it consistent with the light on the timing light? have you tried pulling one plug wire at a time while the engine is running? did the clanking go away when you pulled one of the six? what do you mean by quote "i'm not getting a clanking noise that wasn't there." is this an unopened, original syty motor? any metal shavings in the oil? i feel your pain man...

 

[TurboTony]

[No message]

 

[SY2455]

I haven't had to deal with the distrib in my Syclone yet as it hasn't given me any problems, But on my 1988 S-10 4.3 distrib it was doing what you describe & when I took it out I found the distrib housing was made up of two parts. The 1st part was the cast aluminum, the 2nd part was a stamp metal flat plate that all the components were mounted on & the way GM mounted the plate was kind of "okie" & all I could do at the time was to use a center punch to tighten the fit up & it's lasted over 310,000 miles & is still working good.

 

[SeattleSy#1255]

sy769: how do I determine if i have oil pressure?...truck was driven maybe a block after this happened and at the time I didn't hear the clanking. I know it takes no time to ruin, that is why I dont' want to fire it up unless I can do something or at least try something to fix it. To answer your question, I just loosened the bolt, unpluged tan wire, turned slightly to reach 0* mark and it ran fabulously. I thought you could actually f something up badly by timing a vehicle wrong and cause the piston to travel so far it hits the head? I'm still learning so perhaps i'm rusty on my mechanics.

93ty475: i'll try some of those suggestions and get back to you on those answers. what i met was "I am NOW getting a clanking" sorry for the typo!

sy2455: i'll take a look at it if we determine it needs to come out.

Dionne: ok thanks!

Questions:
can you mess up your oil pump in any way while messing with the timing? Why does my timing jump around everywhere?

 

[93ty475]

buy or borrow a mechanical oil pressure gauge....you can "t" off of the driver's side turbo feed on the block....you could also take the oil feed off at the turbo and turn the motor over without starting it....unplug your ecm fuses and put the feed line into a container with a small opening such as a 3 liter plastic coke bottle....if you have somewhat normal oil psi, you will definitely know it...that line should spray a strong stream of oil.... if you're on your own like i am most of the time, you can rig a remote starter button like mine....push button switch between the yellow and famous purple wire over the brake vacuum booster thing....i would also pull the distributor to make sure it didn't somehow break in there (after the simple test of course)....

edit: keep in mind that the crude method i mentioned is NOT a measurement of oil psi, just a way to see if the oil is being pumped by the oil pump if you do not have a gauge now....also, the oil pump will NOT turn with the distributor pulled out more than 1/4 to 1/2 inch or more...you may have not totally seated the distributor if you pull it up and replaced it for any reason...

 

[skata]

how many miles are on your engine?
just in case it isnt obvious, your distributor shaft drives the oil pump also.
can you lift up and down a lot on the rotor?
it is possible that your distributor is worn enough which would cause the shaft to raise enough to disengage from the oil pump. it would have to be worn pretty good for that to happen, but it's possible. there could also be bushing wear on the top of the distributor/shaft area which would cause excessive side-to-side movement, and cause eractic timing.

if you have the mechanic know-how, i'd say pull the distributor out and make sure it's in good shape. check the gear, shaft bushings, and thrust washers on the bottom(between gear and housing) for wear.

if you were going to pull it out, you might as well get a rebuilt distributor. especially if yours' has a lot of miles/use. i think they're about $100.
:2cents:

 

[SeattleSy#1255]

edit

 

[SY2455]

Are you moving the whole distrib or just the top half? When you set it all the way down, try turning the shaft a little with some downard pressure on the distrib, maybe the oil pump drive shaft is not inside the distrib gear. If this is the case it will drop another 1/4" to 3/8".

 

[SeattleSy#1255]

ya Lloyd, i'll be removing and inspecting it...i will then put it back in but I am thinking this could be the problem. Thanks!

edit: I removed the distributer tonight and nothing look to out of the norm with the exception of the gasket that tore in the mean time. What I did notice is that the main distributer hold down bolt that we normal loosen was tight, yet I was able to turn the distruter and even removed the entire thing with that bolt tight. What I don't know because i have never removed this before is if this is normal or if normally I would have to loosen or even remove that main bolt?

What I need to know is how to find TDC manually before I put this thing back in.

so:

how do i find TDC?

how do I manually turn over the engine?

TIA

 

[SY2455]

What I did notice is that the main distributer hold down bolt that we normal loosen was tight, yet I was able to turn the distruter and even removed the entire thing with that bolt tight

This sounds like the clamp that hold the distributer down was move back on the bolt too far & not gripping the base of the distributer. If you look at the clamp you will see it is slotted for adjustment.

how do I manually turn over the engine?

You will need help with this one. Another warm body if one is close by. Put a socket on the harmonic damper bolt with a breaker bar to turn the engine over.

0. Make sure to get a new gasket before installing the distributer.

1. Remove the # 1 spark plug. Place your finger over the spark plug hole & crank the engine slowly until compression is felt.

2. Align the timing mark on the pulley to 0 on the engine timing indicator.

3. Position the rotor between number 1 & 6 spark plug towers. Note: check the position of the oil pump drive shaft, It has to be in the same position as the slot on the bottom of the distributer drive gear for the distributer to seat right on the block.

 

[SeattleSy#1255]

This is excellent info from you guys...can't thank you enough. I'll let you know the results.

 

[SeattleSy#1255]

i got everything back in and lined up and when i try to fire it up it cranks normaly, then starts to crank slowly with dome lights dimming, then cranks normally, then dome lights dim and cranks slowly, then normal again. It won't fire up however. I noticed that my oil gauge is now rising, so I now i'm now getting some oil preasure, however it won't start.

I checked and triple checked wire placement, checked to make sure nothing was left unplugged or unplugged on accident. Not sure where to go from here.

The symtoms are now like i have a good battery, then bad for a second, then good again and so on and so on.

Is this an indication that something welded itself internally? I don't know where to go from here.

TIA

 

[SeattleSy#1255]

Lloyd,

that all makes sense and works great but im not sure about the first part of #3 where is says "Position the rotor between number 1 & 6 spark plug towers. " How do you do this when the internal part of the shaft of the dissy must be lined up with the oil pump to seat fully in there? Also the rotor can only go on one way? Lastly, once its seated in fully, you cant turn it manually unless the engine is being turned as well. I'm sure i'm missing something or am incorrect somewhere, i'v just never dealt with a dissy problem like this.

when you say #1 and #6 towers you are talking on the cap correct?

 

[TYTILIDIE]

F.Y.I., you can manually turn the crank by using channel locks on the alternator fan. Some will say its insane but Ive done it many times and never had problems. Are you turning the Dist Cap while trying to start it? Youre timing may be way off. Try that next time you try to start itand if it doesnt work then you are probably 180* out. Which means that you will have to pull the Dist and turn the rotor 180* and put it back in. Also you need to make sure that you are using the correct timng mark on the balancer as we have 2. If you look at the balancer, and have both marks facing upwards so they kinda look side by side it would be the left one if youre looking at it from the front. I hate to say this cause I know what a bitch it is puling these motors and putting them back in but if you are hearing the clanking then its a good bet that your motor is trashed. If you need help you can call me anytime I will PM you my #. Good luck.

Mike

 

[SeattleSy#1255]

F.Y.I., you can manually turn the crank by using channel locks on the alternator fan. Some will say its insane but Ive done it many times and never had problems. Are you turning the Dist Cap while trying to start it? Youre timing may be way off. Try that next time you try to start itand if it doesnt work then you are probably 180* out. Which means that you will have to pull the Dist and turn the rotor 180* and put it back in. Also you need to make sure that you are using the correct timng mark on the balancer as we have 2. If you look at the balancer, and have both marks facing upwards so they kinda look side by side it would be the left one if youre looking at it from the front. I hate to say this cause I know what a bitch it is puling these motors and putting them back in but if you are hearing the clanking then its a good bet that your motor is trashed. If you need help you can call me anytime I will PM you my #. Good luck.

Mike

i'll try the 180* thing, however than then moves me far far way from the #1 and #6 plug tower install tip that Lloyd gave me???

 

[Sy769]

Someone else already posted how to check oil pressure.

The reason the engine is cranking slow and fast is because the timing is off.

You need to get some rest, relax, beer and start over.

As they said pull #1 plug and crank the engine to TDC. Align the timing mark on the balancer with 0. You'll know if you have the right one if you cover the spark plug hole with your finger. When the piston is at TDC the piston will stop pushing air out. The correct mark will be close.

Here is a trick I use. Take a old distributor cap and cut off the #1 terminal. Drill out the hole a bit if you need it. Now you can seat the cap and you should see the rotor tip if you have the distributor indexed correctly.
If I remember correctly the flat part of the distributor cap should point towards the driver although it really doesn't matter as long as you aren't putting a strain on the harness. Make sure you seat the distributor all the way to the intake manifold if it won't the oil pump shaft is usually the cause.. Notice the rotor will have to turn as it goes in so it may take a couple times to get it in right. Use a screwdriver if neccesary to turn the oil pump so it will engage the dist. Make sure that the hold down clamp is engaging the distributor when you tighten it. Don't tighten it all the way, just snug it so that you can still turn the distributor with some force when you set the timing.