Frustrated

[Osmosis]

OK, I finally got my chip with zero KR at 18psi boost. I added more timing through out the chip till i got some KR. Then I added a little more KR to a thrid chip in anticipation for higher octane fuel. I went to the track tonight and ran a best of 13.56. I'm not happy as I purchased an rpm stage 3 turbo 60/1, 2800 stall with alky. A/F were 11.4/1. 60ft times were 1.8, top speed was 97-99mph. I was launching at 7psi. I had zero KR with all 3 bins. I used another bin that I get 3-4KR on street fuel and I got zero KR with 20psi using 100 octane. I ran a best of 13.56. So now, how the heck do I get into the 12's with this combo? I was told I could easily get into the 12's with this combo (or even the 11's with this turbo and chip)???? I know that I will proballly need some heads for 11's and maybe injectors. I'm Frustrates as after many hours of tuning, I finally go zero KR with good Air fuel ratios and I"m still running 13.5-13.7. What gives:tdown::squint:

sorry for the rant, I"m just really tired

 

[Osmosis]

Re: Frustrated

When I'm running 18psi on street gas, my timing on teh chip I normally get 4 deg KR is at 16.88 in the cells where I get KR. On the 3 chips that I've zero KR on street gas, it's about 15deg in the cells where I normally see KR. I also increased the timing tables below 194kpa till I noticed KR. Then I pulled the timing out till I had zero KR. I also burned two bins that had increasing timing in the table below 194kpa. Both had low KR on street gas, but zero on the 100 octane.

Thanks for the question, I was just getting ready for bed thinking of adding this info, so TY:tup: LIke I said, I"m frustrated and tired

 

[ZavzTy547]

Re: Frustrated

When I'm running 18psi on street gas, my timing on teh chip I normally get 4 deg KR is at 16.88 in the cells where I get KR. On the 3 chips that I've zero KR on street gas, it's about 15deg in the cells where I normally see KR. I also increased the timing tables below 194kpa till I noticed KR. Then I pulled the timing out till I had zero KR. I also burned two bins that had increasing timing in the table below 194kpa. Both had low KR on street gas, but zero on the 100 octane.

Thanks for the question, I was just getting ready for bed thinking of adding this info, so TY:tup: LIke I said, I"m frustrated and tired

Dude, I truly understand your pain. I was running 13.7-13.9 at the track, using the older Garrett stage 3 turbo (non BB).

I dynoed my old setup and the best I could muster (using code59) was 295 awhp 425lbs torque @ 4000rpm w/16 degrees of timing @ 17PSI (no knock). Then the power curve completely falls off, on the top end making somewhere in the 250 range...

Besides the direct bolt-on affair to the stock dp, I don't think there were much R&D involved to make any real HP with these turbos, at least with the "stock heads and cam".

I've been told from Mike himself that w/a bigger cam and heads, you can get into the mid 12's high 11's.

Now realistically, Mike Lee advertises these stages 1,2,3 turbos to make roughly 50-100 more hp than stock. Which equates to roughly mid 13's to mid-high 12's time slip..

So your efforts aren’t totally in vain, unless theirs another member out their with the same turbo, running in the 12’s (crickets).

 

[leadfoot]

Re: Frustrated

How do you know your trans is not slipping?? :2cents:

 

[MRKING]

Re: Frustrated

Try leaning it out a little bit since the alky adds a little . Any datalogs you can share ?

 

[Brassmonkey]

Re: Frustrated

There are so many variables it is truly difficult to make any good suggestion here without more information. Maybe others know more about your build.

heads, cam, exhaust, converter, injectors are just a few??????

 

[Osmosis]

Re: Frustrated

My Ty is in pefect mechanical condition. Otherwise, I would not take it to the track. Mike Lee swears there are many stock ty's running in the 12's with this turbo. My ty is stock less the turbo, 2800 stall, alky, wide band, 3 bar map, walbro 255lph pump and reliability mods. Tranny is new, not slipping. I was told I need to be between 11.0-11.5 AFR while running alky.

Sorry for the quick replay, going to a doc appointment,

Thanks...gotta go:tup:

 

[turbodig]

Re: Frustrated

Just out of curiosity, what was the temp and altitude where you raced?

 

[turbodig]

Re: Frustrated

Just by way of reference, I have a local Ty here that we've had set up for a while.

On race gas, with about 20 psi and 20 degrees of timing, it ran 12.83 at 100-101. In the heat, at 920 feet.

120k+ all stock unopened motor, PTE44 and a 3" downpipe. Auto-zone cone filter off the turbo that should be boxed in, but wasn't. Stock converter that is *way* too tight for the turbo, needs about a 2600-2800 or so. (It would run 12.40s with the converter) We tweaked the inlet to the stock intercooler a bit with the dremel. The usual fuel pump and AFPR. Tires were Toyos on the stock rims, if I remember right, but it can't launch hard enough to spin much. 60 was in the 1.9 or 2.0s if I remember right.

I've had a few other pure stockers run low 13s/high 12s on roughly the same timing and boost. As long as they're running well otherwise, it doesn't take much of a push to make them run low 13s/high 12s.

Personally, I'd be very curious to see what your turbine inlet pressures were at full boost.

 

[WyoSyclone]

Re: Frustrated

Craig and I have been communicating about this offline. It really is a curious state of affairs. I'll be in touch with Craig later today but I was thinking about suggesting taking the boost down to 12 or 14 lbs and then add a bunch of timing just to log the difference.

I know what you're saying on the turbine pressure Dig... there's a fine line there between the variables that can add up to a bunch of pressure on the exhaust side. I'd be curious to see what the EGR readings would be - at this point that might help with the tuning.

 

[WyoSyclone]

Re: Frustrated

Just out of curiosity, what was the temp and altitude where you raced?

He's in the Seattle area - low altitude and cool temps, but probably humid.

 

[The_Bronze]

Re: Frustrated

I know what you're saying on the turbine pressure Dig... there's a fine line there between the variables that can add up to a bunch of pressure on the exhaust side. I'd be curious to see what the EGR readings would be - at this point that might help with the tuning.

I was going to post up looking at exhaust back pressure so see if there is a restricted catalytic converter (I didn't see it listed as being removed), now I am curious about the other factors that can increase the turbine pressure. Time for a search on my part.

An easy exhaust backpressure test is to remove the O2, install a couple adapters to a 1/4 hose nipple and install a hose to a cheapo fuel/vacuum gauge. Put the gauge inside, take a run and look at the pressure. You should have a fluxuating needle at idle, but basically reading zero (due to pressure/vacuum pulses) and then a small rise to well under 2psi. I have seen up to 8psi holding back a car that ran great otherwise. On a MAF system, it's easy to check the airflow and compute for VE; on a MAP system it is easier to just check backpressure.

 

[turbodig]

Re: Frustrated

An easy exhaust backpressure test is to remove the O2, install a couple adapters to a 1/4 hose nipple and install a hose to a cheapo fuel/vacuum gauge. Put the gauge inside, take a run and look at the pressure. You should have a fluxuating needle at idle, but basically reading zero (due to pressure/vacuum pulses) and then a small rise to well under 2psi. I have seen up to 8psi holding back a car that ran great otherwise. On a MAF system, it's easy to check the airflow and compute for VE; on a MAP system it is easier to just check backpressure.

That's not the backpressure I'm concerned about... the turbine inlet pressure is what I'm particularly interested in. This would require drilling and tapping the turbine housing for a fitting, or welding some sort of fitting onto the crossover, and a length of copper tube to isolate the heat a bit. Simple mechanical oil pressure gauge on the end of the tube.

 

[turbodig]

Re: Frustrated

He's in the Seattle area - low altitude and cool temps, but probably humid.

Low compared to you? Low compared to me?

Altitude and conditions of the day can move ETs 2 seconds or more.

 

[Treymen]

Re: Frustrated

When did you run Osmosis? It's been pretty warm here(for western WA) and still humid. What track?
Bremerton is a pretty crappy track and SIR has warm track temps from the direct sun.

IMO, if you've exhausted all your tuning abilities, take it to a pro. That setup you have is running the same E.T.'s as my basically stock setup. Something's not right. You should be in the 12's fairly easily with what you have. Go or call here http://www.gnnorthwest.com/ and talk to Dan.

PS. We local guys need to meet up soon around some water and drink beer and swap lies.

I'm thinking we should take over Alki one of these Saturdays once Steve gets back.....


Trey

 

[Osmosis]

Re: Frustrated

Quick reply due 2 iPhone & big thumbs ---pita2 post.

No cat. I did do 1 run with exhaust dump open with no improvement or loss in my et

As far as getting the compressor map from mike, well let's just sAy that I asked him for the ccompressor map & I was pertty much pissing in the wind for any help from him!

 

[turbodig]

Re: Frustrated

Craig and I have been communicating about this offline. It really is a curious state of affairs. I'll be in touch with Craig later today but I was thinking about suggesting taking the boost down to 12 or 14 lbs and then add a bunch of timing just to log the difference.

I know what you're saying on the turbine pressure Dig... there's a fine line there between the variables that can add up to a bunch of pressure on the exhaust side. I'd be curious to see what the EGR readings would be - at this point that might help with the tuning.

I doubt you'd find much useful info from EGT... probe location can vary the readings a lot.

On 108 or better race gas, you should be able to run at least 20 degrees of log-displayed timing (not what shows up in your tables, unless you reset things to make them equivalent). From there, you can go up in boost until you hit your knock threshold. I've found over the years that if you get much less than 16-17 degrees on the stock heads and cam, that power really falls off. Regardless of what you do for boost.

I have some suspicions as to what the TIP ratios at higher boost are on these turbos, but the only way to prove it is with a measurement.

If you're careful, you can drill/tap a thick area in the turbine housing near the flange without pulling the turbo.

 

[turbodig]

Re: Frustrated

Quick reply due 2 iPhone & big thumbs ---pita2 post.

No cat. I did do 1 run with exhaust dump open with no improvement or loss in my et

As far as getting the compressor map from mike, well let's just sAy that I asked him for the ccompressor map & I was pertty much pissing in the wind for any help from him!

60-1 compressor maps are all over the 'net. Google will find that.

Cat/exhaust dump isn't the type of backpressure reading we'd need to find.

 

[The_Bronze]

Re: Frustrated

That's not the backpressure I'm concerned about... the turbine inlet pressure is what I'm particularly interested in. This would require drilling and tapping the turbine housing for a fitting, or welding some sort of fitting onto the crossover, and a length of copper tube to isolate the heat a bit. Simple mechanical oil pressure gauge on the end of the tube.

I understand your looking at upstream pressure. I am interested in(but have never researched) inlet pressure, so I'll be looking into it. Exhaust backpressure (had there been a cat) was just a logical place to look for slow trap speeds. I'm not trying to pretend I am a turbo genius here.

 

[Osmosis]

Re: Frustrated

I think I made a fitting that plugged into
my o2 sensor on my vett. I had a clogged cat. Should I take a psi test at ox sensor as I did my vett?